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19th July Lockdown Easing - Observations and Compliance

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Last Thursday evening at around 8pm was my first outing to a supermarket since the rules changed. Normally I'd just go to Sainsburys but given the freezer cabinets were 95% empty I also ended up going to Waitrose. The difference between the two supermarkets was noticeable even though there's only 1/4 mile between them. Sainsburys was about 60-40 masked/unmasked and Waitrose was around 90-10 masked/unmasked. This included staff who were nearly all masked in Waitrose and unmasked in Sainsburys. Personally I had my snood on as I'm yet to have my 2nd jab but once I've had that this Saturday then I will definitely be reconsidering my position. I'll be interested to see if anything has changed by tomorrow when I next go.

Other than that they were both similar in terms of lack of one way entry/exit systems, queuing systems (not that you're likely to be queuing at 8pm on a weekday) and screens between self service checkouts.
 
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MAV39

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I'm with Bertie the Bus, 35B and Yorkshire Bear.

I too detect an unpleasant approach from several posters on R UK Forum threads on Covid, whereby they seem determined to 'win the argument', regardless of other approaches which are more considerate of others.

I determine my actions and behaviour from my own analysis and understanding of a given situation, and take no notice of unknown posters on any social media.

Henceforward, I shall avoid any R UK thread with Covid in its title.
 

Cdd89

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I too detect an unpleasant approach from several posters on R UK Forum threads on Covid, whereby they seem determined to 'win the argument', regardless of other approaches which are more considerate of others.
That is a small minority of posters; I for one agree with being considerate even though I do not intend to wear a mask in most contexts.

If it’s putting you off the forum, I would ask whether you were not equally put off by 12 months’ of intolerant comments on those not wearing face coverings?
 

yorkie

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Two wrongs do not make a right.
There are many wrongs regarding mandatory (or mass) wearing of face coverings. Evidently there is nothing wrong with not wearing them, as it's never been done before in this country (at least not in living memory)

Since the 19th, I wear a mask when out where someone asks me to in a reasonable manner, out of consideration to them or those they are asking on behalf of.
The people who ask you to do that are not thinking of the effects on people with disabilities such as hearing difficulties.

It is in the same vein that, if at Glyndebourne (I wish!), I'd wear black tie - not because I consider it a necessity, but because it is a request. To date, I've not personally encountered a peremptory demand for one; I'll judge that as I find it.
That's a false equivalence; the wearing of black ties don't cause any difficulties for people who are hard of hearing.

But I share the view of @Busaholic that there are some for whom this is a matter of confrontation, who seem to wish to crush the opposition to their chosen response rather than acknowledge and engage with it. I'd even go so far as to call it an authoritarian response.
An authoritarian response to authoritarianism? That's a rather interesting view! For someone to be behaving in such a manner I'd say they'd have to be mandating the non-wearing of masks. As I said above, my local leisure centre has a sign stating "Masks are optional" and that is exactly what I am calling for. The authoritarians don't want such signage because they know that wording it this way would see very few people wearing them!
At my local sainsburys all wearing masks. Someone I know went to London and said 50/50 on the Underground. I wear one myself because I am going on holiday soon and do believe it helps in some way.
Feel free to put your case forward in this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ating-of-their-use.219985/page-7#post-5242026 ; did you read the links I provided in that thread?

Anyway I just got back from Morrisons, where I'd say it was about 50/50, which is pretty much what I'd hoped for. This is a store where compliance when it was legally mandated was 100% (and beyond; it was incredibly rare to see people unmasked, which suggests to me that many exempt people felt pressured into wearing them)
Another covid thread that seems hell bent on descending with same posters arguing (quite aggressively) about masks.

No one has made a new point. Can't we leave it to the thread specifically set up?
Mandatory masks was always going to be very divisive to our society. When they ceased to be mandated, the language used by some organisations/individuals to encourage them has been appalling. People are naturally going to have a view about this. Also, some people want to be able to post their observations. If people don't want to read it, it's pretty easy to avoid this thread!

As for making points, this thread is more for observations and experiences than actually discussing the effectiveness of masks; there is a separate thread for that.
I'm with Bertie the Bus, 35B and Yorkshire Bear.

I too detect an unpleasant approach from several posters on R UK Forum threads on Covid, whereby they seem determined to 'win the argument', regardless of other approaches which are more considerate of others.

I determine my actions and behaviour from my own analysis and understanding of a given situation, and take no notice of unknown posters on any social media.

Henceforward, I shall avoid any R UK thread with Covid in its title.
That is entirely your choice.

But if you're aiming that at me, I make no apologies for standing up for people with medical conditions, anxieties and hidden disabilities who have had a really tough time with mask mandates who were looking forward to a more inclusive society who are now having a slower path to that normality, due to militant messaging by some organisations.

I've been verbally abused and threatened for standing up for people who are exempt from wearing face coverings (while wearing one myself, I will add). I've been the victim of crime to the tune of £2.5k due to a crime that would not have been attempted if it was not for the normalisation of face coverings.

I have repeatedly said I am happy with wording such as "masks are optional"; my argument is not against optional mask wearing where it is made clear that it's optional (with no pressure applied or attempt to make people feel guilty) but I am deeply unhappy with organisations trying to shame or bully people into wearing them (such as LNER)

I have no issue with places like my local leisure centre where it is made clear that masks are optional and around 20% or so of people wear them. It's clearly their choice and they are not pressured into it.

I'm not sure what you mean by "other approaches which are more considerate of others"; if this is a suggestion that people who do not wear face coverings are not being considerate, then you are entitled to that opinion, but I reject that for the reasons stated above.
 
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35B

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There are many wrongs regarding mandatory (or mass) wearing of face coverings. Evidently there is nothing wrong with not wearing them, as it's never been done before in this country (at least not in living memory)


The people who ask you to do that are not thinking of the effects on people with disabilities such as hearing difficulties.


That's a false equivalence; the wearing of black ties don't cause any difficulties for people who are hard of hearing.


An authoritarian response to authoritarianism? That's a rather interesting view! For someone to be behaving in such a manner I'd say they'd have to be mandating the non-wearing of masks. As I said above, my local leisure centre has a sign stating "Masks are optional" and that is exactly what I am calling for. The authoritarians don't want such signage because they know that wording it this way would see very few people wearing them!

Feel free to put your case forward in this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ating-of-their-use.219985/page-7#post-5242026 ; did you read the links I provided in that thread?

Anyway I just got back from Morrisons, where I'd say it was about 50/50, which is pretty much what I'd hoped for. This is a store where compliance when it was legally mandated was 100% (and beyond; it was incredibly rare to see people unmasked, which suggests to me that many exempt people felt pressured into wearing them)

Mandatory masks was always going to be very divisive to our society. When they ceased to be mandated, the language used by some organisations/individuals to encourage them has been appalling. People are naturally going to have a view about this. Also, some people want to be able to post their observations. If people don't want to read it, it's pretty easy to avoid this thread!

As for making points, this thread is more for observations and experiences than actually discussing the effectiveness of masks; there is a separate thread for that.

That is entirely your choice.

But if you're aiming that at me, I make no apologies for standing up for people with medical conditions, anxieties and hidden disabilities who have had a really tough time with mask mandates who were looking forward to a more inclusive society who are now having a slower path to that normality, due to militant messaging by some organisations.

I've been verbally abused and threatened for standing up for people who are exempt from wearing face coverings (while wearing one myself, I will add). I've been the victim of crime to the tune of £2.5k due to a crime that would not have been attempted if it was not for the normalisation of face coverings.

I have repeatedly said I am happy with wording such as "masks are optional"; my argument is not against optional mask wearing where it is made clear that it's optional (with no pressure applied or attempt to make people feel guilty) but I am deeply unhappy with organisations trying to shame or bully people into wearing them (such as LNER)

I have no issue with places like my local leisure centre where it is made clear that masks are optional and around 20% or so of people wear them. It's clearly their choice and they are not pressured into it.

I'm not sure what you mean by "other approaches which are more considerate of others"; if this is a suggestion that people who do not wear face coverings are not being considerate, then you are entitled to that opinion, but I reject that for the reasons stated above.
It is the interpretation of “optional” that I am taking issue with. A request, even strongly put, is still a request; it is not obligatory and we have choice as to whether to accede to it.

The choice that you ask for is not the choice of whether or not to wear a mask, but the prevention of being asked to wear a mask. There are indeed genuine issues over mask wearing (I think Jack Straw was justified in his objections to face coverings 10 or 15 years ago), but the fact remains that many people do find mask wearing of psychological comfort whether for their own protection (which we would agree is illogical at best without high grade masks) or for collective protection (about which I don’t propose to reopen debate here).

Change will happen over time as people readjust; those who do take comfort from mask wearing (and in many cases, especially hearing, overlap with those whom you express support) are as worthy of consideration as those for whom masks have been difficult or worse.

When out and about I take a mask; I choose when to wear - or not - that mask based on those around me, and my view of the impact my behaviour is most likely to have on those nearby.
 

yorkie

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It is the interpretation of “optional” that I am taking issue with. A request, even strongly put, is still a request; it is not obligatory and we have choice as to whether to accede to it.
True, but when a company has the choice between stating "masks are optional" (my leisure centre) and "WEAR A MASK. Please be considerate bla bla.." (LNER) I don't think you could disagree with me that these are two very different concepts within the spectrum of optionality?

The choice that you ask for is not the choice of whether or not to wear a mask, but the prevention of being asked to wear a mask.
You can word it however you want, but my position is how I stated it.

There are indeed genuine issues over mask wearing (I think Jack Straw was justified in his objections to face coverings 10 or 15 years ago), but the fact remains that many people do find mask wearing of psychological comfort whether for their own protection (which we would agree is illogical at best without high grade masks) or for collective protection (about which I don’t propose to reopen debate here).
Indeed we have a separate thread for that.

Change will happen over time as people readjust; those who do take comfort from mask wearing (and in many cases, especially hearing, overlap with those whom you express support) are as worthy of consideration as those for whom masks have been difficult or worse.
You appear to disregard the fact that people with medical conditions, anxieties, hidden disabilities etc have been disregarded in this pursuit of giving a supposed comfort to people based on a highly debatable measure (which we can debate the effectiveness of in the other thread).

In my opinion, this needs rectifying, and to do this requires change, not attempting to perpetuate mask wearing, to the detriment of the aforementioned groups.

When out and about I take a mask; I choose when to wear - or not - that mask based on those around me, and my view of the impact my behaviour is most likely to have on those nearby.
I make my decision based on rationality, logic and knowing that we have a collective duty to those with medical conditions, anxieties, hidden disabilities to make society more inclusive for them. Others are free to make their decisions based on other criteria.
 

Furryanimal

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Having been to England for the first time since normality today I was extremely annoyed at the frequent announcements on Taunton station designed to shame you into wearing a mask.Presumably they are at all GWR stations -although I didn’t notice them at Bristol Parkway.
And the conductor on my cross country train this morning informed passengers’although there is no legal requirement to wear masks or socially distance there is still a global pandemic and cross country trains encourage you to do so’.
i reckon the vast majority were wearing masks on my outward journey to Taunton.More unmasked on the return.
And masks on/off at the Severn Tunnel for me!
 

yorkie

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Having been to England for the first time since normality today I was extremely annoyed at the frequent announcements on Taunton station designed to shame you into wearing a mask.Presumably they are at all GWR stations -although I didn’t notice them at Bristol Parkway.
And the conductor on my cross country train this morning informed passengers’although there is no legal requirement to wear masks or socially distance there is still a global pandemic and cross country trains encourage you to do so’.
Totally inappropriate in my opinion. All that needs to be said is something like "the wearing of masks is optional" or "the wearing of masks is no longer compulsory but you are welcome to wear a mask if you wish to do so"

I won't accept it when people claim that it's the same thing; anyone who claims that is being disingenuous.
 

johnnychips

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I am not sure if this is the right place, or whether the mask thread would be better, but in South Yorkshire, all First buses are displaying ‘wear a mask on the bus’. The interchanges at Sheffield, Barnsley and Doncaster are still displaying big ‘you must wear a mask in the interchange and on the buses’ signs. No wonder people are confused.

I have been in a lot of pubs recently after a walk, and all seem completely back to normal. On buses and trains, it is usually older people, more female than male, who wear masks. I have seen posts where people have been abused or commented on, or even stared at for wearing or not wearing masks. Touch wood this has not applied to anywhere I’ve been in South Yorkshire and Derbyshire over the last two weeks.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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I went to the Co-Op mask free today, not gonna lie I was a bit scared of getting dirty looks or funny comments but all was okay. @yorkie makes a good point in that no one wants any authoritarian dictatorships or anything, so I’ll go without next time as well. I do get worried that people will think it’s selfish though.
 

bengley

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I went to the Co-Op mask free today, not gonna lie I was a bit scared of getting dirty looks or funny comments but all was okay. @yorkie makes a good point in that no one wants any authoritarian dictatorships or anything, so I’ll go without next time as well. I do get worried that people will think it’s selfish though.
Is your main concern about not wearing because of what other people will think?

(Understandable concern by the way!)
 
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Huntergreed

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Scotland seems to be making a big deal about masks.

See the attached poster.

NO MASK NO SCOTLAND

If you’re visiting us this summer, wear a mask. Scotland isn’t England. Our laws are different

Anyone else get a very patronising authoritarian tone from this messaging?

I’ve heard through a certain “Informant” that the current plan in Scotland is to keep the mandate until next spring, with “low population immunity”, “the risk of a new variant” and “a necessary sensible degree of caution” cited as being the reason.

I have decided that as of 09th August I’ll become exempt. I do have a valid exemption which I have so far refused to acknowledge much (due to the hassle involved) but after 09th august I’ll be fully claiming it.

I also notice the Scotrail Twitter team have added a mask to their page name. Virtue signalling to the extreme?

I think it’s clear the Scottish mandate won’t be ending in a couple of weeks to put it one way.
 

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DelayRepay

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Is your main concern about not wearing aaso what other people will think?

(Understandable concern by the way!)

When I first went maskless, my concern was getting dirty looks or abuse. I guess I felt the same way as those who cannot wear masks have been made to feel for the last 12 months.

Every time a restriction has been lifted, the first time I've done whatever was previously banned I've felt a bit 'naughty'. E.g. the first time in the pub when they reopened. Perfectly legal and something I had been looking forward to for a long time, but like I say a strange feeling that I was doing something wrong.
 

bengley

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When I first went maskless, my concern was getting dirty looks or abuse. I guess I felt the same way as those who cannot wear masks have been made to feel for the last 12 months.

Every time a restriction has been lifted, the first time I've done whatever was previously banned I've felt a bit 'naughty'. E.g. the first time in the pub when they reopened. Perfectly legal and something I had been looking forward to for a long time, but like I say a strange feeling that I was doing something wrong.
I felt exactly the same. I was on a drive from Manchester to the South coast and stopped off at an EV charger in Coventry. Forgot a mask (none in the car) and needed to pop into a nearby aldi for some food.

I got a few looks but kept my distance and to be honest it wasn't as bad as I expected, but still caused a bit of anxiety.

I haven't worn a mask for months now and I don't care if I get dirty looks.

Scotland seems to be making a big deal about masks.

See the attached poster.



Anyone else get a very patronising authoritarian tone from this messaging?

I’ve heard through a certain “Informant” that the current plan in Scotland is to keep the mandate until next spring, with “low population immunity”, “the risk of a new variant” and “a necessary sensible degree of caution” cited as being the reason.

I have decided that as of 09th August I’ll become exempt. I do have a valid exemption which I have so far refused to acknowledge much (due to the hassle involved) but after 09th august I’ll be fully claiming it.

I also notice the Scotrail Twitter team have added a mask to their page name. Virtue signalling to the extreme?

I think it’s clear the Scottish mandate won’t be ending in a couple of weeks to put it one way.
What a horrible campaign.

No mention of exemptions - way to make exempt people feel welcome :rolleyes:
 

35B

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Scotland seems to be making a big deal about masks.

See the attached poster.



Anyone else get a very patronising authoritarian tone from this messaging?

I’ve heard through a certain “Informant” that the current plan in Scotland is to keep the mandate until next spring, with “low population immunity”, “the risk of a new variant” and “a necessary sensible degree of caution” cited as being the reason.

I have decided that as of 09th August I’ll become exempt. I do have a valid exemption which I have so far refused to acknowledge much (due to the hassle involved) but after 09th august I’ll be fully claiming it.

I also notice the Scotrail Twitter team have added a mask to their page name. Virtue signalling to the extreme?

I think it’s clear the Scottish mandate won’t be ending in a couple of weeks to put it one way.
That campaign feels less about Covid, and more about nationalist politics - especially given St Nicola's policies seem not to have delivered the zero Covid paradise she'd promised.
 

nedchester

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Scotland seems to be making a big deal about masks.

See the attached poster.



Anyone else get a very patronising authoritarian tone from this messaging?

I’ve heard through a certain “Informant” that the current plan in Scotland is to keep the mandate until next spring, with “low population immunity”, “the risk of a new variant” and “a necessary sensible degree of caution” cited as being the reason.

I have decided that as of 09th August I’ll become exempt. I do have a valid exemption which I have so far refused to acknowledge much (due to the hassle involved) but after 09th august I’ll be fully claiming it.

I also notice the Scotrail Twitter team have added a mask to their page name. Virtue signalling to the extreme?

I think it’s clear the Scottish mandate won’t be ending in a couple of weeks to put it one way.
The poster is not an official Scottish Government poster. A similar one was done for Wales. Neither are issued by those Governments.
 

Failed Unit

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That campaign feels less about Covid, and more about nationalist politics - especially given St Nicola's policies seem not to have delivered the zero Covid paradise she'd promised.
I must agree with you - you could argue that it is a touch on the racist side. Image if we had a poster at Heathrow Airport saying "This isn't America - guns are not allowed in the UK", I am sure it would spark a diplomatic incident.

But as you say all 4 of the UK regions have taken a different approach, but all with equally bad outcomes. I know in Scotland it would be much better if it was an independent country as they could have block the boarder and kept Covid out altogether ;). I see some areas are already complaining about England letting double vaccined people in without quarantine, as they are forced to follow or people will just use an airport in England and drive to Scotland / Wales.

But swinging it back to the topic of this thread, compliance in Scotland does seem about the same as in England (whether Nicola likes it or not). Just like England "success" in the football caused a spike, as people pushed the boundaries. As we have see at recent football matches, Covid doesn't enter football grounds as both Rangers and Celtic are both allowed to have larger crowds then the current regulations for Scotland.
 

XAM2175

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What a horrible campaign.

No mention of exemptions - way to make exempt people feel welcome :rolleyes:
That campaign feels less about Covid, and more about nationalist politics - especially given St Nicola's policies seem not to have delivered the zero Covid paradise she'd promised.
I must agree with you - you could argue that it is a touch on the racist side. Image if we had a poster at Heathrow Airport saying "This isn't America - guns are not allowed in the UK", I am sure it would spark a diplomatic incident.

It's not an official campaign.
 

nlogax

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It's not an official campaign.

Indeed. It's an image retweeted by an individual SNP MP that was originally designed by a Welsh social media professional (reusing a design he'd originally used for a 'Wales isn't England' t-shirt).

Checking Twitter I see the usual pro and anti rabbles are at their standard angsty worst because of it.
 

DustyBin

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Yes basically

Completely understandable. If it's any comfort, I can say with considerable confidence that not many people are wearing a mask to "protect others". I know a few people who are wearing masks selectively (in supermarkets and on trains rather predictably!) and when I've asked why the answer has invariably been along the lines of "I'm still a bit worried about catching it"....
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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Scotland seems to be making a big deal about masks.

See the attached poster.



Anyone else get a very patronising authoritarian tone from this messaging?

I’ve heard through a certain “Informant” that the current plan in Scotland is to keep the mandate until next spring, with “low population immunity”, “the risk of a new variant” and “a necessary sensible degree of caution” cited as being the reason.

I have decided that as of 09th August I’ll become exempt. I do have a valid exemption which I have so far refused to acknowledge much (due to the hassle involved) but after 09th august I’ll be fully claiming it.

I also notice the Scotrail Twitter team have added a mask to their page name. Virtue signalling to the extreme?

I think it’s clear the Scottish mandate won’t be ending in a couple of weeks to put it one way.
That’s a hostile poster. Scotland are flattering themselves if they think we actually want to visit their country when it’s producing such totalitarian campaigns
 

HST274

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That’s a hostile poster. Scotland are flattering themselves if they think we actually want to visit their country when it’s producing such totalitarian campaigns
I wouldn't be surprised if many don't want the English to visit and don't care if the poster pushes you away.
 

yorkie

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I wouldn't be surprised if many don't want the English to visit and don't care if the poster pushes you away.
I don't think this is a majority view by any means.
That’s a hostile poster. Scotland are flattering themselves if they think we actually want to visit their country when it’s producing such totalitarian campaigns
The sort of people who make such posters don't want people visiting.

Trying to stick to Covid matters, I think that this demonstrates the sort of authoritarianism we're up against (yes I accept what people say above that other factors are at play in addition, and I don't disagree with them)

....Every time a restriction has been lifted, the first time I've done whatever was previously banned I've felt a bit 'naughty'. E.g. the first time in the pub when they reopened. Perfectly legal and something I had been looking forward to for a long time, but like I say a strange feeling that I was doing something wrong.
I felt exactly the same. I was on a drive from Manchester to the South coast and stopped off at an EV charger in Coventry. Forgot a mask (none in the car) and needed to pop into a nearby aldi for some food.

I got a few looks but kept my distance and to be honest it wasn't as bad as I expected, but still caused a bit of anxiety....
Indeed many people have such concerns and this is what is driving the current trend of continuing mask wearing: fear of standing out / fear of others disapproving of you.

I've entered into arguments with individuals over mask wearing and exemptions (while wearing a mask, as was mandated at the time) and I got a load of abuse for doing so, but this only makes me more determined.

I'm going to be doing a bit of travelling over the next few days so it will be interesting to see what I observe.
 

Failed Unit

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For me this week wearing is now between 50% and 70%. Feel totally comfortable not making a mask as I no longer stand out from the crowd so no reason to have someone challenge me. If it stays like this I don't really care as those that chose to wear them are happy and us that don't are as well. No-one challenging each other. I suspect the number wearing will drop personally as people feel more comfortable they won't be attacked by vigilantes for not wearing them.
 

roversfan2001

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Mask wearing at football last night was less than 5%. Felt essentially normal, was good to be back in a stadium again after so long.
 

greyman42

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I travelled on The Underground yesterday from Kings Cross to Liverpool Street. There were 12 passengers in my carriage; 7 wearing masks, 5 not wearing masks.
 
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