Avanti West Coast: Standard Premium

[takno]

I might be the only one here, but the idea of Standard Premium really frustrates me. I like travelling first class for the food and drink - even if it is just a sandwhich and drinks. As I usually travel long distance at unsociable hours many shops etc aren’t open, so I’d rather pay £10-15 to upgrade to first class (via Seatfrog) and know I’m going to get food plus several rounds of drinks. I don’t mind the seats in standard so I’m not upgrading for a better seat.

A recent example; I paid £15 for a seatfrog upgrade from Aberdeen - Darlington (4hrs 40 mins) and got 2 full rounds of food service (sandwhiches, biscuits etc) plus 4 drinks rounds. The equivalent from the cafe bar would’ve been at least £25. And whilst this was on LNER, Avanti prices are broadly similar.

With this ‘Standard Premium’ model, I’d have liked to see a continued complimentary service of drinks and snacks, with chargeable proper food options (which could even be the first class meals!). I will be completely priced out of First Class now which is a shame, as I did use it on most Avanti journeys. I imagine it’ll be a similar situation for most. And I won’t upgrade to Standard Premium without an improved food offering, even if chargeable!

I don't think that's a particular problem. You'll be able to get much the same offering by using the buffet, possibly meaning that the buffet has enough revenue to survive and maybe even thrive. Your more- comfortable seat can go to somebody who values the seat. And seatfrog can be removed from the equation altogether, thus giving us all a bit of a break from irritating needless extra apps

 

[Bletchleyite]

I might be the only one here, but the idea of Standard Premium really frustrates me. I like travelling first class for the food and drink - even if it is just a sandwhich and drinks. As I usually travel long distance at unsociable hours many shops etc aren’t open, so I’d rather pay £10-15 to upgrade to first class (via Seatfrog) and know I’m going to get food plus several rounds of drinks. I don’t mind the seats in standard so I’m not upgrading for a better seat.

Seatfrog, to be fair, is selling unsold seats at very low prices. It's to your advantage, but it means the class is not working because the seats are not being sold at a price more related to their value. When you consider that First Class seats take up about 1.5 times the space Standard ones do, that makes that multiplier sensible for the basic product - if you add freebies on top they are heading towards it potentially even being a loss leader.

Everyone loves a bargain, but a viable business doesn't exist if almost everything is being sold that way.

I think this sort of sits with "rail enthusiasts are frustrated that fares are to be simplified because it means they won't be able to get a bargain due to their inside knowledge" - yes, that is a bit annoying if you've become an expert, but the overall benefit of a simpler system is significant.

But yes, I'm with the other poster - if you're spending £10-15 and don't care about the seat, spend it on food to take with you (cheaper and better range than on-board) and just buy teas or coffees if you want those, and sit in Standard - and avoid faffing with apps! (I guess for you the other possible model would work - First Class service with a Standard style seat - i.e. BR "Silver Standard").

Personally the thing that's important to me is the wider seat (ideally on the 1 side) and enough space to use a laptop. I assume they must have done surveys to see which worked best, as something like Voyager "Coach D" but with service (2+2 but all tables etc) might also have been an option.

 

[gaillark]

It's difficult to get tea that badly wrong, but personally I'd rather pay for good coffee than have bad coffee free.

TBH if I was designing First I'd follow DB's model - the buffet menu served at your seat at the listed price, but on proper crockery etc to give a premium feel.

From my point of view, charge me about 1.5-1.6 times the Standard fare for a seat that's both window and aisle, aligned with the window properly and has a decent table (folding is fine, indeed a single seat is my preference), with everything else in terms of ticket T&Cs identical to Standard, and I'll go First every single time unless on expenses when I'm not allowed, and if you let me upgrade myself for the same uplift I might even do so then, too. I very often travel 1st abroad where those are the terms.

Note: I have no interest in "sham 1st" - 2+2 belongs in Standard, and 3+2 belongs in the bin. The "hard product" needs to be right.

Spot on!
1.5-1.6 times over the standard fare is spot on and that should include 1st versions of all off peak standard walk on fares.
Virgin were just plain greedy. Hyped the product with their spin and people are brainwashed into thinking its a premium product whilst it wasn't.
As you quite rightly said just price it at 50% above standard and forget the gimmicks of so called freebies in food and a can of cider or glass of cheap wine.

 

[Butts]

I hope Standard Premium is sealed off from 1st Class Toilets so we are able to recycle our free Cider and Scotch without having to wait for SP Oiks cluttering the place up

Mind you if the cheap 1st Class Advances go so will I

 

[XAM2175]

Mind you if the cheap 1st Class Advances go so will I

I'll just cross-post this to the thread about the railways saving money, then.

 

[VideozVideoz]

So what day did SP launch? Would be good for someone to post their experience on here if they get a moment. Interested to see if it gets crowded but we’ll hafta wait a while for that to happen I assume since train travel will be subdued for a while

 

[Cletus]

On a Piccadilly to Euston service.

No weekend 1st, but you can upgrade to 1st class for another £166.10 lol

 

[Trackman]

On a Piccadilly to Euston service.

No weekend 1st, but you can upgrade to 1st class for another £166.10 lol

There is a weekday upgrade for £50 for MAN-EUS, a bit daft isn't it?
When I started travelling again along my normal route, I found at weekends they were turfing people out of first who thought they could upgrade- ticket checks were a lot earlier than normal too.

So what day did SP launch? Would be good for someone to post their experience on here if they get a moment. Interested to see if it gets crowded but we’ll hafta wait a while for that to happen I assume since train travel will be subdued for a while

Not launched yet, but there was a small trial.

 

[Tester]

There is a weekday upgrade for £50 for MAN-EUS, a bit daft isn't it?
When I started travelling again along my normal route, I found at weekends they were turfing people out of first who thought they could upgrade- ticket checks were a lot earlier than normal too.

Not launched yet, but there was a small trial.

All the Pendolino carriages G (if 11) and H I have seen since Monday (5 trains) have been labelled as Standard Premium, and empty apart from the odd staff member travelling passenger - with the first class passengers in a noticeably busy J and the trolley going no further (I haven't been brave enough to check K!).

 

[Trackman]

All the Pendolino carriages G (if 11) and H I have seen since Monday (5 trains) have been labelled as Standard Premium, and empty apart from the odd staff member travelling passenger - with the first class passengers in a noticeably busy J and the trolley going no further (I haven't been brave enough to check K!).

So I've just been told by text.
Did they announce it over the PA?

 

[voyagerdude220]

On a Piccadilly to Euston service.

No weekend 1st, but you can upgrade to 1st class for another £166.10 lol

Am I right to assume that Weekend First has been scrapped on Avanti?

Personally, I think the timing of the changes is wrong, particularly given that they haven't yet upgraded the food and drink offering in First Class. Imagine paying £166.10 on a weekend and only receiving a very small snack.

 

[Huntergreed]

I travelled Avanti on Thursday on a 390 and no such announcement was made, have they not officially started this yet?

 

[raveon]

Am I right to assume that Weekend First has been scrapped on Avanti

Well it’s no longer mentioned on their website so looks like it.

 

[JaJaWa]

Standard Premium was officially “launched” by Avanti West Coast today. They’ve also got new headrests:


Source: https://newsdesk.avantiwestcoast.co.uk/news/avanti-west-coast-launch-standard-premium-service


Source: https://www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk/onboard/standard-premium

It’s on all Pendolinos now, more details in this post

 

[raveon]

Thanks. Suggests full first class service 7 days a week, so cooked breakfast on weekends, which would be most welcome.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks. Suggests full first class service 7 days a week, so cooked breakfast on weekends, which would be most welcome.

Though not at the likely price. I would pay over the odds for a good on board meal, but not £50+ for an average fry up when my local greasy cafe does the best one you could imagine with a pint of orange juice and a big mug of tea for under £15.

 

[Tester]

So I've just been told by text.
Did they announce it over the PA?

Generally not, but I do recall it being mentioned on one train.

I have another this evening and a few during the week, so will be keeping an eye.

One staff member mentioned that there had been consideration of full first being only carriage K, which would have been 'interesting'!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Today I had an enjoyable journey in first class on the 20:50 from Birmingham in which I was offered both hot food and alcohol in first class - on a Sunday. However, this appears to be the only benefit to first class customers of standard premium being introduced.

The train manager told me - he brought it up, I didn’t start chatting to him and disturbing him I hasten to add; I see far too many enthusiasts doing that - that standard premium has been near empty while first class has been packed, particularly on weekday Manchester services last week.

He also told me some first class passengers chose to go without food and deliberately sat in Standard Premium to get some space or a table to themselves. On an eleven carriage Pendolino, three and a bit first class carriages has been reduced to one and a bit - and they were already extremely busy pre COVID. This all while standard premium is empty because they failed to properly advertise it.

Finally, the train manager told me that as well as first class weekend upgrade already having been scrapped -> with the introduction of GBR, Seatfrog will disappear - so we can’t even use that for first class anymore... although I appreciate that probably warrants a new thread if anyone wants to discuss that.

I don’t like standard premium. It’s First trying to cheapen the service as I expected they would in order to make a quick buck on the side. Let’s charge our first class passengers double, tempt the standard class passengers into paying a bit more and banish cheap upgrades.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don’t like standard premium. It’s First trying to cheapen the service as I expected they would in order to make a quick buck on the side. Let’s charge our first class passengers double, tempt the standard class passengers into paying a bit more and banish cheap upgrades.

But lots of us want that service at that price. It takes more than a couple of weeks to establish demand. Weekend First is very successful - it's basically Weekend First offered all week.

I think if it was offered with advance booking at the fixed price upgrade (which their sales system can do, as it used to offer it with Weekend First) then it'd sell quite well.

 

[Journeyman]

But lots of us want that service at that price. It takes more than a couple of weeks to establish demand. Weekend First is very successful - it's basically Weekend First offered all week.

I think if it was offered with advance booking at the fixed price upgrade (which their sales system can do, as it used to offer it with Weekend First) then it'd sell quite well.

Absolutely. It increases choice, and First as it stands right now on Avanti is often too expensive for me. I can see myself using this a lot.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Absolutely. It increases choice, and First as it stands right now on Avanti is often too expensive for me. I can see myself using this a lot.

Same. Not many journeys to make at the moment, but once there are...

I am already a heavy user of Weekend First, the same* offering on a weekday is very attractive.

* Snack boxes I don't really want and a couple of paper cups of tea are "de minimis" and so I don't consider them important in the decision.

 

[Mike395]

I quite like it as a concept (and indeed am typing this from a Standard Premium seat!) - £25 for almost 2 hours of having a quiet space where I can spread out and work/study is quite often worth it for me.

In the short term whilst social distancing is being applied for reservations in Standard, I can also see it being attractive for business travellers on flexible tickets, knowing that even if the train is fully reserved in Standard they're pretty much guaranteed a seat/table (I can't see, disruption aside, Standard Premium being completely full until they introduce advance reservations for it later this year) - same-day weekday upgrades to First are very expensive and often not claimable under expenses policies.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I quite like it as a concept (and indeed am typing this from a Standard Premium seat!) - £25 for almost 2 hours of having a quiet space where I can spread out and work/study is quite often worth it for me.

In the short term whilst social distancing is being applied for reservations in Standard, I can also see it being attractive for business travellers on flexible tickets, knowing that even if the train is fully reserved in Standard they're pretty much guaranteed a seat/table (I can't see, disruption aside, Standard Premium being completely full until they introduce advance reservations for it later this year) - same-day weekday upgrades to First are very expensive and often not claimable under expenses policies.

I think self-upgrading business travellers are likely to be a fairly big part of the market. Increasingly businesses won't pay for first. The name is a bit "sneaky" as per Eurostar, but I don't think most expenses policies are that Swiss-cheese-like - more likely it'll genuinely be people paying out of their own pocket.

 

[mark-h]

I think self-upgrading business travellers are likely to be a fairly big part of the market. Increasingly businesses won't pay for first.

Particularly as businesses will often pay meal expenses so not having the food included in the fare is less of an issue for these travellers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Particularly as businesses will often pay meal expenses so not having the food included in the fare is less of an issue for these travellers.

Though inclusive meals are a sort of tax workaround here - you can't claim, tax free, an evening meal unless getting home late or staying overnight (I forget the definition of "late").

 

[tspaul26]

I think self-upgrading business travellers are likely to be a fairly big part of the market. Increasingly businesses won't pay for first. The name is a bit "sneaky" as per Eurostar, but I don't think most expenses policies are that Swiss-cheese-like - more likely it'll genuinely be people paying out of their own pocket.

Particularly as businesses will often pay meal expenses so not having the food included in the fare is less of an issue for these travellers.

Weirdly, under my employer’s expenses policy they are more likely to pay for a first class fare if a meal is included than for a standard premium upgrade of this nature i.e. they quantify the meal at our full reimbursement limit for each journey which means that standard premium looks poorer value in comparison.

 

[mmh]

Weirdly, under my employer’s expenses policy they are more likely to pay for a first class fare if a meal is included than for a standard premium upgrade of this nature i.e. they quantify the meal at our full reimbursement limit for each journey which means that standard premium looks poorer value in comparison.

I can't see rail ticket upgrades ever being widely accepted by businesses as a legitimate expense, in the same way airline upgrades never have been. Business air passengers who upgrade are doing it themselves, either with cash or air miles. If Standard Premium was a, umm, "standard" railway offering then perhaps it would find its way into some travel policies, in the same way some companies allow Premium Economy or Business air travel for journeys over a particular length or by staff over a particular grade, but while it's a random one off thing by a single random TOC that's really unlikely.

 

[raveon]

The train manager told me - he brought it up, I didn’t start chatting to him and disturbing him I hasten to add; I see far too many enthusiasts doing that - that standard premium has been near empty while first class has been packed, particularly on weekday Manchester services last week.

What did he mean "too many enthusiasts"? Surely fare paying enthusiasts are as welcome as any other cohort of passenger!

 

[XAM2175]

What did he mean "too many enthusiasts"? Surely fare paying enthusiasts are as welcome as any other cohort of passenger!

That's a comment made by the poster, not the Train Manager.

 

[Blinkbonny]

That's a comment made by the poster, not the Train Manager.

Well I booked First Class from Euston weeks ago. Hope my carriage booking is not now a then non- existent Standard Premium!