Avanti West Coast: Standard Premium

[takno]

Exactly this -those travelling on a full first class ticket may find that table to themselves somewhat harder to come by now!

(appreciate that a table to yourself is not guaranteed in first, but a lot of people will pay the extra to increase their chances of getting one)

I don't think keeping running first like it was was an option. A first class seat as built takes up 50% more space than a standard one, so expecting a table to yourself in addition is taking the capacity to maybe half. If they aren't consistently able to get reasonable loadings at double price therefore then they'll progressively convert the space to standard.

The fact that first was hugely overprovided on West coast, and people have been able to get underpriced upgrades or half carriages to themselves was never going to continue. Standard Premium is arguably the least bad response, given that the alternative was probably to convert more carriages to normal standard

 

[jfollows]

Is it? From one of the most cramped Standard Classes on the railway to what is almost certainly the best First Class, in terms of the "hard product"? To me it's a huge upgrade.

I guess all the "haters" are short, skinny and don't like having a table or looking out of the window?

I don't give a monkey's about gimmicks, I just want a seat with a table, excellent legroom, width and a decent view out, ideally on the 1 side, and I want it at the right price and as a walk-up thing as well as advance booked (which they will be doing).

It's perfect. The only thing that would be better is getting rid of free gimmicks in 1st, reducing the First Anytime and First Off Peak fares to 1.5-1.6 times Standard and selling the food and drink at the buffet price to those who want them.

I'm 6' tall and I don't find Standard Class especially comfortable on a Pendolino, but it's all personal, and I don't see it as much of a huge upgrade as you do, but presumably there has been some analysis by Avanti here and they seem to have concluded that you're more representative of their passengers than I am, that's fine with me.

I used to travel in BR days on Saturdays in declassified First Class, I'm talking about late 1970s here, but I had the coach diagrams and knew when this was available. However this was an upgrade for free. I'm not willing to pay as much for it as you are.

To me, it's killed First Class as well, unless this improves significantly. I accept that's all a matter of perception on my part, I'd be paying the same and getting much the same as I used to, however it no longer feels worth the extra any more, especially if my chances of a table to myself are significantly reduced. I don't like the airline seats as much, but I accept that many people do, again that's about target audience etc.

 

[tbwbear]

I am tempted to try this on a trip from Euston to Manchester in a couple of weeks. I already have a reserved seat in standard (F) but I do like the First Class seats on the Pendolino.

So, what do I do ? Do I go to the Standard Premium carriage at Euston, sit anywhere and wait to be challenged by someone to pay ?

I can't seem to be able to find the upgrade price on line - is it fixed ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I used to travel in BR days on Saturdays in declassified First Class, I'm talking about late 1970s here, but I had the coach diagrams and knew when this was available. However this was an upgrade for free. I'm not willing to pay as much for it as you are.

The reason I think the 1.5x-1.6x figure is reasonable is quite simply that it relates to how much floor space it takes up. Coach E, a full Standard, has 76 seats. Coach H, a full First, has 44. 76/44 = 1.727... - so I'm paying (indeed slightly under) for the extra floor space allocated to the seating.

To me, it's killed First Class as well, unless this improves significantly. I accept that's all a matter of perception on my part, I'd be paying the same and getting much the same as I used to, however it no longer feels worth the extra any more, especially if my chances of a table to myself are significantly reduced. I don't like the airline seats as much, but I accept that many people do, again that's about target audience etc.

I do think they have made an error allocating 2 coaches to this for now until it's advance-bookable, I'd have gone for 1. Once it's advance-bookable, what would make sense is to deal with it dynamically per train on the 11-cars - allocate K and J to 1st and G to SP, then allocate H to either once it gets full (or even half and half).

A table to yourself is a "false expectation" because you are only entitled to one seat. Perhaps they should charge extra to ensure that? Or just, in the refurb, turn some 2+tables round to make single seats for which there is a high demand and only I think 4 per train.

I am tempted to try this on a trip from Euston to Manchester in a couple of weeks. I already have a reserved seat in standard (F) but I do like the First Class seats on the Pendolino.

So, what do I do ? Do I go to the Standard Premium carriage at Euston, sit anywhere and wait to be challenged by someone to pay ?

Yes. It's near enough Weekend First on a weekday.

I can't seem to be able to find the upgrade price on line - is it fixed ?

£25. (Entertainingly the ticket type code is 25Q i.e. 25 quid )

 

[jfollows]

A table to yourself is a "false expectation" because you are only entitled to one seat.

Indeed, and that's something I've always accepted, and in fact I don't especially mind if someone sits at "my" table anyway, but my experience has led me to know that there was always a strong likelihood of having a table to myself in First Class, and this knowledge was factored in to my perception of the value of the additional price. The introduction of Standard Premium has changed this equation for me for now.

Or just, in the refurb, turn some 2+tables round to make single seats for which there is a high demand and only I think 4 per train.

Again, it's about individual perception of value, I'm happy if I'm in the minority, but I don't personally like single seats in First Class on the Pendolinos, they're not what First Class represents to me, but I agree with you that many others do prefer them.

 

[XAM2175]

To me, it's killed First Class as well, unless this improves significantly. I accept that's all a matter of perception on my part, I'd be paying the same and getting much the same as I used to, however it no longer feels worth the extra any more, especially if my chances of a table to myself are significantly reduced. I don't like the airline seats as much, but I accept that many people do, again that's about target audience etc.

The interesting thing is how this can spin so many different ways for different people. In my case, Standard Premium offers me the bits I consider most important from First but at a lower price:

• I'm neither tall nor thin, so being able to sit on the one-seat side in a wider seat is the thing I want most from an upgraded experience.
• For medical reasons I have to avoid alcohol almost entirely, so the promise of a High Speed Pub is completely worthless to me.
• I often travel at shoulder times or for only part of the full London-Glasgow route, so more often than not I don't actually get the full First Class service anyway.

I understand completely that there are losers in this plan, but it's a win in my books. And, when out of curiosity I asked how my company would view Standard Premium on an expense claim, I received the answer that it would in-principle be acceptable because with the frills removed it doesn't look like a back-door claim for a booze cruise.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Something is going to have to give. The much smaller First Class is currently 'full' whilst two coaches of standard premium are carrying nothing but fresh air. First Class passengers aren't happy at being 'crowded' in and noone appears to be upgrading very much at all. A perfect storm is brewing.

 

[takno]

And, when out of curiosity I asked how my company would view Standard Premium on an expense claim, I received the answer that it would in-principle be acceptable because with the frills removed it doesn't look like a back-door claim for a booze cruise.

It's interesting that people are viewing this as something which would be ruled out by corporate travel policies. In practice the only reason most corporate travel policies have become quite so mean is that specialist companies have been hired centrally on a commitment to "reduce travel costs" with no real thought about the consequences. Miserable staff arriving late having been unable to work on the way is rarely actually the aim of management, particularly below board level, but often it's just something they are powerless to fix. Standard Premium is potentially a way provide a bit of extra comfort and space to work, for a small separate fee which is below the amount that relatively junior line managers can sign off. That means that for a lot of organisations it will be possible to get it through the normal expense system in a way that a first class ticket simply can't be.

 

[Bishopstone]

I’m looking forward to some Standard Premium jaunts in the period before they promote it properly and it starts to get busier: the autumn, I guess.

I’ll spend a tenner in M&S Food beforehand, maybe try an At Seat order of a coffee mid-journey, and it will feel much like First Class, for less outlay. I was never fussed about the booze but, again, if wanted it can be purchased from outlets at most stations.

‘Upgrade on board’ is also great, because the railway has a patchy track record of bothering to collect these incremental revenue streams. (‘There’s a few loud football fans in there. Might get angsty. Just leave it.’)

 

[Mogz]

Is it? From one of the most cramped Standard Classes on the railway to what is almost certainly the best First Class, in terms of the "hard product"? To me it's a huge upgrade.

I guess all the "haters" are short, skinny and don't like having a table or looking out of the window?

I don't give a monkey's about gimmicks, I just want a seat with a table, excellent legroom, width and a decent view out, ideally on the 1 side, and I want it at the right price and as a walk-up thing as well as advance booked (which they will be doing).

It's great. The only thing that would be better is getting rid of free gimmicks in 1st, reducing the First Anytime and First Off Peak fares to 1.5-1.6 times Standard and selling the food and drink at the buffet price to those who want them.

Totally, completely and 100% agree.

 

[Journeyman]

As far as I'm concerned, increasing choice can only be a good thing. I'll be happy to consider using both First and Standard Premium in future, depending on the prices available.

 

[voyagerdude220]

As far as I'm concerned, increasing choice can only be a good thing. I'll be happy to consider using both First and Standard Premium in future, depending on the prices available.

I agree it's good to have extra choices, however, I do think it's wrong that the extra choices are being offered at the expense of those who are still paying for the "full" First Class experience, particularly given how expensive their tickets are and the reduction in space, peace/quiet and privacy they will have recently experienced.

As I've already said, I think it's far too early for Avanti to introduce Standard Premier. I personally think they should have waited until the First Class catering offer was improved greatly, e.g. Full English breakfasts being served every morning/improved range (and improved quality of products offered) during the day, hot meals available all day every day etc. alongside the full range of drinks.

 

[telstarbox]

For comparison what is the typical price differential on BA short haul from economy to club?

 

[Journeyman]

For comparison what is the typical price differential on BA short haul from economy to club?

Absolutely enormous. Usually about 3x.

 

[johncrossley]

I hate the nagging you get from staff in First Class. I used to travel about once a month First Class on Avanti (albeit on cheaper Advances booked well in advance) and don't like any of their food except breakfast, but I would almost never travel when breakfast was offered so I would keep having to tell them I don't want it. They don't even give you major branded drinks and nibbles, it is like stuff you buy in Lidl. I've nothing against Lidl, I shop there myself, but the sort of person who travels in First Class generally buys the more expensive brands at the supermarket. I don't drink tea or coffee. I'm basically subsidising people who just load up on the freebies just because they are free.

So this new offering looks ideal for me. I'm not tall or fat but I still don't like sitting next to people, so I'm happy to pay a bit extra for a wide single seat.

 

[route101]

I hate the nagging you get from staff in First Class. I used to travel about once a month First Class on Avanti (albeit on cheaper Advances booked well in advance) and don't like any of their food except breakfast, but I would almost never travel when breakfast was offered so I would keep having to tell them I don't want it. They don't even give you major branded drinks and nibbles, it is like stuff you buy in Lidl. I've nothing against Lidl, I shop there myself, but the sort of person who travels in First Class generally buys the more expensive brands at the supermarket. I don't drink tea or coffee. I'm basically subsidising people who just load up on the freebies just because they are free.

So this new offering looks ideal for me. I'm not tall or fat but I still don't like sitting next to people, so I'm happy to pay a bit extra for a wide single seat.

Pepsi is offered in first class, is that not a big brand?

In terms of seating, I would like to see more single airline seats.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In terms of seating, I would like to see more single airline seats.

I agree - but not being used to cram extra seats in or break window alignment a la 80x, simply seats in the current pairs turned around and provided with a smaller table.

There is a bit of a paradox of 1st - the "1 side" is overwhelmingly the most popular, both for an intimate table for two and for a single seat. It's a shame UK trains aren't a bit wider, otherwise a 1+1+1 layout could be considered!

(If you were starting from scratch with compulsory reservation and seat selection, you might indeed charge a little more for a 1-side seat! Or you could have an intermediate class of 2+2 premium with leather seats and First Class legroom/window alignment, and actual First Class being 1+1 as Heathrow Express was - now that would be worth paying for!)

 

[Blinkbonny]

Something not been mentioned, I believe, but surely Avanti now are going to have up their game in First Class.

The basic fallback has always been "Well, the extras are 'complimentary' so they can't be guaranteed..." (yes, I know that's contentious!) but if they are offering basically the same service cheaper but without refreshments, then if I pay extra for those refreshments I sure as hell expect them be forthcoming. And delivered with good grace to boot!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Something not been mentioned, I believe, but surely Avanti now are going to have up their game in First Class.

The basic fallback has always been "Well, the extras are @complimentary so they can't be guaranteed..." (yes, I know that's contentious!) but if they are offering basically the same service cheaper but without refreshments, then if I pay extra for those refreshments I sure as hell expect them be forthcoming. And delivered with good grace to boot!

Agree. I think the term complimentary in this case is borderline fraudulent - it is a key part of the package being sold, and so a partial refund should be available if it is not delivered, because what has happened is essentially bait and switch through negligence*. Would like to see legislation preventing that. For complimentaries to be legally treated that way, they should be unexpected, so a purchasing decision could never be made on their offering. A complimentary item is for example where a business stands at Euston handing out product samples - totally unexpected, no related payment (anyone can walk into the station and grab one whether they intend to travel or not) and no contract.

Might help that these new "posh class" passengers may be more likely than others to pursue a Court case along those lines.

* Inadequate effort to ensure provision meaning they aren't delivered consistently, I mean.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Agree. I think the term complimentary in this case is borderline fraudulent - it is a key part of the package being sold, and so a partial refund should be available if it is not delivered, because what has happened is essentially bait and switch through negligence*. Would like to see legislation preventing that. For complimentaries to be legally treated that way, they should be unexpected, so a purchasing decision could never be made on their offering. A complimentary item is for example where a business stands at Euston handing out product samples - totally unexpected, no related payment (anyone can walk into the station and grab one whether they intend to travel or not) and no contract.

Might help that these new "posh class" passengers may be more likely than others to pursue a Court case along those lines.

* Inadequate effort to ensure provision meaning they aren't delivered consistently, I mean.

Completely agree
Today on my 07:35 to Manchester the service started after Milton Keynes, and until Milton Keynes I assumed there was no catering, and thought - I’ve just paid for first class and got standard premium for it. Correction - a much busier version of standard premium.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Agree. I think the term complimentary in this case is borderline fraudulent - it is a key part of the package being sold, and so a partial refund should be available if it is not delivered, because what has happened is essentially bait and switch through negligence*. Would like to see legislation preventing that. For complimentaries to be legally treated that way, they should be unexpected, so a purchasing decision could never be made on their offering. A complimentary item is for example where a business stands at Euston handing out product samples - totally unexpected, no related payment (anyone can walk into the station and grab one whether they intend to travel or not) and no contract.

Might help that these new "posh class" passengers may be more likely than others to pursue a Court case along those lines.

* Inadequate effort to ensure provision meaning they aren't delivered consistently, I mean.

I agree, it's a complete "get-out" and it shouldnt be allowed. Why for instance on the few occasions I've travelled in First in the evening (pre-Covid) has there NEVER been a hot meal available, its ALWAYS been the dreadful "cheese & crackers" or SFA?

 

[Energy]

Worth remembering that first might be full now but many may choose to go for standard premium over first due to the price difference I'm expecting first to completely disappear in favour of standard premium with charging extra for refreshments in the future.

 

[Skie]

Right now, I don't mind standard. Get a table or a view in an airline seat and they're comfortable enough for 2+ hours. First class is an occasional luxury when it works out cheaper or when I'm travelling on my own dime and can justify it.

Given First sounds like it's going to be A: busier due to losing 1-2 carriages and B: more expensive, I dont think I'll use it again and probably wont bother with Standard Premium.

Though the cynic in me knows that First (the company) will of course aim to refurb Standard class to maximise profits, which will likely lead to Standard Premium looking attractive.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Comments on social media are mostly negative, with people complaining that the two remaining First Class coaches are very busy.

 

[43096]

Complaints on social media are mostly negative

Complaints generally are negative!

 

[Scotrail314209]

Complaints generally are negative!

Oops! Meant comments

 

[VauxhallandI]

Am I reading this right?

Previously my weekend upgrade would get me nibbles, hot drinks and a bigger seat and now it just gets me the bigger seat. Not seeing the value?

 

[Deafdoggie]

The problem seems to be people on here saying they will use it...but no one is actually using it. I'm sure the aim isn't to put off First Class passengers and get them to spend less, but that appears to be the reality at the moment.

 

[takno]

The problem seems to be people on here saying they will use it...but no one is actually using it. I'm sure the aim isn't to put off First Class passengers and get them to spend less, but that appears to be the reality at the moment.

The reality at the moment is that the train is still half empty and the government prefer it that way. The first class offering has gone from nothing to something pretty basic, and they've restickered some stock. You can't draw any conclusions from the current state of affairs

Longer term they've made it clear that they intend to relaunch first class as a radically different product. In the meantime they're doing the important job of cleaning out the down-market cheapskates who were only on there for their fill of cheap booze.

Complaining now is like sacking a decorator when they've only got as far as stripping the old wallpaper

 

[Techniquest]

I haven't used it yet, but I've had no reason to go anywhere near Avanti's services yet. When I do, depending on the journey, I'll no doubt try it just to see how good it is. However, for now, I'm not doing any long distance trips so it will have to wait. Once I've had my second vaccine, which is not until mid August, I am confident that I'll be ready to take on overnight trips again. Until then, however, I'm just one of many passengers willing to try Standard Premium but the circumstances are not yet all synced up.