Class 175 future speculation

[MrCheeseGrater]

I think they would be a far better alternative to the GWR networkers when they are deployed on long distance routes like Cardiff to Portsmouth.

 

[Dai Corner]

I agree they have a comfortable interior, but their low density seating makes them unsuitable for InterCity services.
Conversely, their swift acceleration makes them eminently suitable for services like East West Rail, which is why Chiltern should take them.

Remember the Mk1-Mk3 coaches with 48 First or 72 Second class seats?

 

[The Planner]

I agree they have a comfortable interior, but their low density seating makes them unsuitable for InterCity services.
Conversely, their swift acceleration makes them eminently suitable for services like East West Rail, which is why Chiltern should take them.

Why does EW need swift acceleration? Its not like its stopping every 5 minutes.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Why does EW need swift acceleration? Its not like its stopping every 5 minutes.

It depends where the stops are on the Marston Vale, and also futureproofing for the London - Aylesbury - MK via Calvert option.

Remember the Mk1-Mk3 coaches with 48 First or 72 Second class seats?

No, I was born after the millennium!
Mk3 I do remember with the HSTs, but they were replaced on the GWML for a reason.
And we will need more and more capacity over time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree they have a comfortable interior, but their low density seating makes them unsuitable for InterCity services.

You what? Low density seating is eminently suitable for InterCity services as comfort is important. High density seating is for commuter services.

The seat is similar in design to the new Avanti seat, and so is actually quite space efficient.

 

[AlastairFraser]

You what? Low density seating is eminently suitable for InterCity services as comfort is important. High density seating is for commuter services.

The seat is similar in design to the new Avanti seat, and so is actually quite space efficient.

Comfort may be important, but we need to strike a balance between comfort and capacity.
And the 175s don't have enough capacity to be the single fleet for ScotRail's IC services, while they do easily for something like EWR.

 

[Dai Corner]

Comfort may be important, but we need to strike a balance between comfort and capacity.
And the 175s don't have enough capacity to be the single fleet for ScotRail's IC services, while they do easily for something like EWR.

Have you got a link to the projected passenger figures for EWR and the actual and projected future ones for ScotRail IC?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Comfort may be important, but we need to strike a balance between comfort and capacity.
And the 175s don't have enough capacity to be the single fleet for ScotRail's IC services, while they do easily for something like EWR.

A 5 car 175 formation has a similar capacity to a short HST.

 

[The Planner]

It depends where the stops are on the Marston Vale, and also futureproofing for the London - Aylesbury - MK via Calvert option.

That won't be a through service, it will be Northampton-esque with a big dwell. It won't be 100mph either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Scotrail don't need 100mph stock, they need 125mph intercity stock to replace their HSTs if anything.

ScotRail don't need 125mph stock at all as they have no lines where it can run at that speed. 100mph is just fine.

 

[Rhydgaled]

A 5 car 175 formation has a similar capacity to a short HST.

Indeed if you compare an IC125 with a buffet and first class (2+1 seating) with class 175s with their current interiors (low-density 2+2 standard class seating throughout) I wouldn't be surprised if the 175 had slightly more seats (a total of 304 for a 5-car 175 I think) than the HST.

 

[darylyates17]

Saddened to the end of the 175s with TfW had lots of good memories riding them over the years and I will miss them, I wonder if the corrosion issues are indeed the reason they've been replaced. I do think Chiltern will suit them if they do indeed go there but reliability may be a problem now they are not at Chester they will need Alstom maintenance.

 

[43096]

Saddened to the end of the 175s with TfW had lots of good memories riding them over the years and I will miss them, I wonder if the corrosion issues are indeed the reason they've been replaced. I do think Chiltern will suit them if they do indeed go there but reliability may be a problem now they are not at Chester they will need Alstom maintenance.

Why do they need Alstom maintenance? The reliability of the 458s improved markedly once Alstom weren’t involved.

 

[warwickshire]

Could the Dft force Chiltern to have the 175?.
Ie cheaper to run than Mk5 and 68s from any possible 2024 timetable change. For extra fleet. Some rumours on here reckon Chiltern. For 175.
Various rumours in West Midlands amongst rail enthusiasts are stating possible near deal either 175 or 68 and Mk5 ex Tpex. But will it be cheaper for Dft to have Chiltern run 175 instead. Unless they are all possibly going to East and West Rail. This 175 next toc speculation and re mentioned elsewhere is quite really and is remains a mystery of who is next in line for them. Someone on here might know.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

ScotRail don't need 125mph stock at all as they have no lines where it can run at that speed. 100mph is just fine.

100mph is absolutely fine but the 175’s wouldn’t work. Ideally ScotRail need 6-7 car sets on most of the Inter7City stuff now and even sets in multiple would be a pain. There’s always a 158/170 5 car that does the 10:33 from Edinburgh now and it’s usually pretty full. The Inverness to Edinburgh trains during the day are almost always so full they either leave people behind or they whack up the price of an Advance Single (or withdraw them completely) to deter people from using them. The 10:50 Inverness to Edinburgh is one of ScotRail’s most popular leisure services, if it isn’t the most popular.

The problem is ScotRail took on probably the HST fleet in the worst condition in the form of ex FGW/GWR stock and as most of us know they were hammered by the routes they’ve run over the years. The condition of some of them is really bad and the refurbs are already looking tired a small number of places. In contrast the EMR, LNER and XC stock never had this problem. Admittedly the EMR stock wasn’t great but it was nowhere near as bad as the stock they’ve ended up with.

The 222’s are the ideal solution, probably until a fleet of AT300 derived stock can be purchased new. I’d say ScotRail probably should just go for the new stock now but there’s probably a cost limitation in that. The 175’s fill in a stopgap for sure but they’re an overall step backwards in my opinion. It’d be going back to the days of the 170’s doing all of the runs.

There’s definitely sound logic to the 175’s going to Chiltern and then releasing Turbos for GWR. But aren’t we forgetting this is the DFT who almost certainly will throw a spanner in the works somewhere along the line. I wonder if (and this is an if) we could see as above but also the 168/3’s move to EMR to avoid the need for them to keep any 158’s. I’ve not got the exact numbers to hand but I feel like for this to have any chance of working Chiltern would also need all of the TPE MK5 sets.

 

[43102EMR]

Could the Dft force Chiltern to have the 175?.
Ie cheaper to run than Mk5 and 68s from any possible 2024 timetable change. For extra fleet. Some rumours on here reckon Chiltern. For 175.
Various rumours in West Midlands amongst rail enthusiasts are stating possible near deal either 175 or 68 and Mk5 ex Tpex. But will it be cheaper for Dft to have Chiltern run 175 instead. Unless they are all possibly going to East and West Rail. This 175 next toc speculation and re mentioned elsewhere is quite really and is remains a mystery of who is next in line for them. Someone on here might know.

If anything the Mk5s (if it happens) will be to replace the Mk3s, which as we all know the DfT want gone across the board - the 175s (again if it happens) will likely enable internal 168 cascades to replace most (if not all) of the 165s

 

[Energy]

Could the Dft force Chiltern to have the 175?.
Ie cheaper to run than Mk5 and 68s from any possible 2024 timetable change. For extra fleet. Some rumours on here reckon Chiltern. For 175.

Force? No.

Chiltern will price up various options for the DfT like 175s, mk5as or the existing mk3s. It's incredibly unlikely that they'll be 'forced' by the DfT, the risks and issues which make Chiltern management dislike certain rolling stock will also make the DfT dislike said stock.

Various rumours in West Midlands amongst rail enthusiasts are stating possible near deal either 175 or 68 and Mk5 ex Tpex. But will it be cheaper for Dft to have Chiltern run 175 instead. Unless they are all possibly going to East and West Rail. This 175 next toc speculation and re mentioned elsewhere is quite really and is remains a mystery of who is next in line for them. Someone on here might know.

EWR is still 196s AFAIK. I believe there was an ORR application for 196 training from Chiltern.

 

[12LDA28C]

If anything the Mk5s (if it happens) will be to replace the Mk3s, which as we all know the DfT want gone across the board - the 175s (again if it happens) will likely enable internal 168 cascades to replace most (if not all) of the 165s

Absolutely not. A tender has already gone out to replace the 165s with brand new units. The 168s are already scheduled for an internal refresh which should see them remain in service with Chiltern potentially for another ten years.

Could the Dft force Chiltern to have the 175?.
Ie cheaper to run than Mk5 and 68s from any possible 2024 timetable change. For extra fleet. Some rumours on here reckon Chiltern. For 175.
Various rumours in West Midlands amongst rail enthusiasts are stating possible near deal either 175 or 68 and Mk5 ex Tpex. But will it be cheaper for Dft to have Chiltern run 175 instead. Unless they are all possibly going to East and West Rail. This 175 next toc speculation and re mentioned elsewhere is quite really and is remains a mystery of who is next in line for them. Someone on here might know.

175s were rumoured as an option for Chiltern but that seems to have gone quiet lately. EWR is planned to be 196s when services start running in 2025.

 

[anthony263]

Pity GWR didn't grab them.im.sure st Phillips Marsh could rise to the challenge of sorting out and looking after these units

 

[Rhydgaled]

Pity GWR didn't grab them.im.sure st Phillips Marsh could rise to the challenge of sorting out and looking after these units

Has there been an announcement regarding who has grabbed them then? If not, it's still possible that it could be GWR getting them - certainly that's what I hope will happen (running as 5-cars on Cardiff-Portsmouth please).

 

[Dan G]

EWR between Oxford and Bedford and Milton Keynes will stick with 168s, as they're ideal. EWR to Cambridge will get new trains, almost certainly Civities. A high profile new line isn't going to open with 30 year old trains.

175s releasing Turbos from Chiltern back to GWR must be a possibility, though I would think the 175s questionable reliability would be risky on such a major route.

GWR still the most likely destination imho.

 

[The Planner]

EWR between Oxford and Bedford and Milton Keynes will stick with 168s, as they're ideal. EWR to Cambridge will get new trains, almost certainly Civities. A high profile new line isn't going to open with 30 year old trains.

175s releasing Turbos from Chiltern back to GWR must be a possibility, though I would think the 175s questionable reliability would be risky on such a major route.

GWR still the most likely destination imho.

They aren't using 168s, that is already known. It is 196s for Oxford MK.

 

[westcoaster]

Could these be used to see of a HST fleet somewhere
ScotRail see of the intercity7 fleet ( sure I read somewhere they or Aslef wanted them gone)
GWR and could still be used and based around South Wales, see of the castle sets.

I don't see them with Chiltern as the door positions are not suited to quick boarding and alighting.

 

[E100]

I would agree that Scotrail would be a good choice. If they could take RETB then they could be ideal for Inverness to replace the 158's which could then be used on the West Highland Lines (assuming gauging can be sorted) replacing the 156's. Pair them up as 2 + 3 car sets and have them run services to and from Inverness as well down to Glasgow / Edinburgh and Aberdeen.

Whilst I know Northern won't take them, to me Heaton would work well to remove the 156's that are based there. They have experience with getting the 180's somewhat reliable too.

I don't know enough about the Chiltern network to comment.

 

[43096]

Could these be used to see of a HST fleet somewhere
ScotRail see of the intercity7 fleet ( sure I read somewhere they or Aslef wanted them gone)
GWR and could still be used and based around South Wales, see of the castle sets.

There’s already a plan in place to replace the GWR sets. ScotRail are still using the HSTs and they are beyond the ASLEF deadline on them. They are also on lease to 2030.

 

[GWVillager]

Has there been an announcement regarding who has grabbed them then? If not, it's still possible that it could be GWR getting them - certainly that's what I hope will happen (running as 5-cars on Cardiff-Portsmouth please).

No, but I have heard on here that GWR have said they won’t be getting them. I do think Cardiff to Portsmouth would be a good fit, but equally I can see why GWR wouldn’t want them (or wouldn’t be allowed them).

 

[Energy]

No, but I have heard on here that GWR have said they won’t be getting them. I do think Cardiff to Portsmouth would be a good fit, but equally I can see why GWR wouldn’t want them (or wouldn’t be allowed them).

Clarence Yard has posted before that Cardiff to Portsmouth requires stabling far from the depot, and with GWR's experience of the 180s they don't trust the 175s to always work far from home.

GWR are more interested in the TfW 158s.

 

[Ayman Ilham]

Clarence Yard has posted before that Cardiff to Portsmouth requires stabling far from the depot, and with GWR's experience of the 180s they don't trust the 175s to always work far from home.

GWR are more interested in the TfW 158s.

Makes sense; GWR already have a fleet of 158s so it saves driver training and I'm pretty sure the TfW and GWR 158s were all part of a single fleet once upon a time, back in the days of Wessex Trains and Alphaline, so their destinations (if they're still programmed to have a mix of Wales & Borders and Great Western destinations) would probably already be compatible out of the box.

 

[Energy]

Makes sense; GWR already have a fleet of 158s so it saves driver training and I'm pretty sure the TfW and GWR 158s were all part of a single fleet once upon a time, back in the days of Wessex Trains and Alphaline, so their destinations (if they're still programmed to have a mix of Wales & Borders and Great Western destinations) would probably already be compatible out of the box.

The GWR 158s had TrainFX LCDs fitted, the TfW units are still dot matrix. I'm not sure what make the dot matrix one are, if its also TrainFX they might be compatible but I wouldn't assume so.

PIS changes are relatively minor.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Makes sense; GWR already have a fleet of 158s so it saves driver training and I'm pretty sure the TfW and GWR 158s were all part of a single fleet once upon a time, back in the days of Wessex Trains and Alphaline, so their destinations (if they're still programmed to have a mix of Wales & Borders and Great Western destinations) would probably already be compatible out of the box.

I’ve put in quite a number of random codes for the APIS and never found anything off the TFW network so I doubt they’re still in there (but could be wrong). Wouldn’t have thought that it would be a huge job to have them reprogrammed seems as GWR will already have all of the files made up for their current fleet.

The GWR 158s had TrainFX LCDs fitted, the TfW units are still dot matrix. I'm not sure what make the dot matrix one are, if its also TrainFX they might be compatible but I wouldn't assume so.

PIS changes are relatively minor.

Ahh scrap last part of mine about reprogramming then haha !