JumpinTrainz
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I wonder if they’ll brand any of the B9TLs for ‘the One’ too or if they’ll just stick with the E300s. The B9TLs for the 1 need a refurb.
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First Greater Glasgow
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I'd hope they brand the deckers for the 1C/1D tbh. Arguably they need it more than the singles plus I doubt they could get away with all singles considering what passenger demand is capable of being like at times. Could be massively affected post-Covid but it would take the biggest of falls for all single to be suitable
These are definitely for the one the one and 201 are the same colour like the 41 and 75
Jordan Adam
Established Member
The new timetable booklets also confirm that the 201 is still purple and that "The One" brand is being kept.
The One timetable booklet - https://www.firstgroup.com/uploads/node_images/greater-glasgow/(b1)_001_TT_Bklt.pdf
JumpinTrainz
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As far as branding goes it’s nice to see they are keeping it going. I’m wondering if they’ll eventually brand the 6 green and the Kirky routes orange like the route map says. It’s odd that the 2 was originally meant to be red but they went lime instead.
Think the 87/88/89 could be branded eventually tbh and it would be good to see those routes with their own buses. Doubt they'd stick to those routes though if they're currently anything to go by. Seems to be just about anything that turns up on them now but it's a good corridor for passenger loads
Pandemic put paid to any plans of upgrading it.
The one was never going to be upgraded
GaryBrown156
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Yesterday I had a wee jaunt out to Silverburn, East Kilbride and Clydebank and I must say the quality of vehicles was a veritable smorgasbord.
My first journey was on a B7 service 57 from Springburn to Silverburn. Consistent with my previous comments about the B7's this vehicle was rather run down (threadbare seats ect). I also noticed that the vast majority of vehicles on this route (and on the 10 which interworks) where mostly B7 operated and in a similar condition.
My next journey (once I arrived back in town) was on one of the new 18 branded Enviro 400 MMC's. this bus was immaculate (no litter/damaged seats etc) although the constant excessively loud audio announcements for people to wear face coverings did become rather frustrating after a few stops.
Once I arrived in EK I then boarded a low height Enviro service 6 to Clydebank. This bus was also spotless (although the seats where starting to become threadbare so will definitely need reupholstered in the near future).
My last journey of the day was on a service 60 (61 branded) B9 from Clydebank to Easterhouse. This vehicle was by far my favourite. spotless clean, had functioning usb ports, no irritating announcements at every stop, and by far the most comfortable seats.
I would rank the buses that I travelled on in this in order of preference:
1: refurbished B9 (Service 60)
2: low height Enviro 400 (Service 6)
3: New Enviro 400 MMC (Service 18)
4: B7 (Service 57)
My observations are that new doesn't always mean best.
I don't know if the B9 refurbishment was done in house or by a sub contractor but if I was making the decisions at FG I would refurbish all my vehicles to the same standard as the 61 branded B9's as they are by far the best in the fleet imo. Hopefully if/when the low height deckers for the 6 get a refurb they will be done to the same specification.
If First Glasgow are strapped for cash to invest in new vehicles due to the pandemic could refurbishing older B7's/B9's and E400's (possibly cascaded from other areas or bought 2nd hand) be an option?.
If its more cost effective than brand new and they are refurbished to "B9 standard" im sure most punters wouldn't know the difference.
My first journey was on a B7 service 57 from Springburn to Silverburn. Consistent with my previous comments about the B7's this vehicle was rather run down (threadbare seats ect). I also noticed that the vast majority of vehicles on this route (and on the 10 which interworks) where mostly B7 operated and in a similar condition.
My next journey (once I arrived back in town) was on one of the new 18 branded Enviro 400 MMC's. this bus was immaculate (no litter/damaged seats etc) although the constant excessively loud audio announcements for people to wear face coverings did become rather frustrating after a few stops.
Once I arrived in EK I then boarded a low height Enviro service 6 to Clydebank. This bus was also spotless (although the seats where starting to become threadbare so will definitely need reupholstered in the near future).
My last journey of the day was on a service 60 (61 branded) B9 from Clydebank to Easterhouse. This vehicle was by far my favourite. spotless clean, had functioning usb ports, no irritating announcements at every stop, and by far the most comfortable seats.
I would rank the buses that I travelled on in this in order of preference:
1: refurbished B9 (Service 60)
2: low height Enviro 400 (Service 6)
3: New Enviro 400 MMC (Service 18)
4: B7 (Service 57)
My observations are that new doesn't always mean best.
I don't know if the B9 refurbishment was done in house or by a sub contractor but if I was making the decisions at FG I would refurbish all my vehicles to the same standard as the 61 branded B9's as they are by far the best in the fleet imo. Hopefully if/when the low height deckers for the 6 get a refurb they will be done to the same specification.
If First Glasgow are strapped for cash to invest in new vehicles due to the pandemic could refurbishing older B7's/B9's and E400's (possibly cascaded from other areas or bought 2nd hand) be an option?.
If its more cost effective than brand new and they are refurbished to "B9 standard" im sure most punters wouldn't know the difference.
Jordan Adam
Established Member
47394 now has full route branding for the M60.
I guess new buses ordered will come, they may have made a downpayment on them. Old buses will need to get replaced .
Yes, the B9s for 61 are quite nice, do wonder about the wooden effect floor, goes grey and soaks up smells, like Nat Express coaches. The Elclispes and B7 geminis should of been upgraded internally a while back.
Yes, the B9s for 61 are quite nice, do wonder about the wooden effect floor, goes grey and soaks up smells, like Nat Express coaches. The Elclispes and B7 geminis should of been upgraded internally a while back.
cnjb8
Established Member
Getting 2nd hand buses in or cascading from other First companies will be tough as if First Glasgow are strapped for cash, so will the other First companies
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Think it's safe to say that the B7TLs are very unlikely to see a refurb. Yes, you can argue that they should have been done but they are 15/16 years old now and will they spend money on refurbing them AND make them Euro VI compliant? No.
The reality is that should we get through Covid and Social Distancing is then relaxed, the fleet is likely to reduce in size anyway so the oldest fleet will disappear anyway.
Remember that along with Leeds and Bristol, Glasgow has had the lions share of new vehicle investment in recent years and will be getting more with the electric vehicles. Some OpCos have had very little if any new vehicle investment for 4/5 years.
smtglasgow
Member
I think First Glasgow being strapped for cash (however true it might be at the moment) is a red herring. Glasgow is fundamentally a sound business and if passenger numbers drop as expected post-Covid, First will simply shrink the business to match demand - the profits will still roll in, even if this year is a shocker. Whether a reduced First (and McGills, and Glasgow Citybus…) is going to give the city the public transport it deserves in the mid to late 2020s is another matter altogether.
I think the problem is that it's down to more than just the bus companies themselves. First aren't perfect but they're not exactly the worst company around like some online would have you believe. Think the government and Glasgow City Council need to look at the best ways to get people out of cars and onto buses. In recent times there's been new bus gates but it's going to take far more than that to do any good for bus companies. Better financial support regarding concessionary travel and tackling congestion would definitely help
overthewater
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The other problem is network is needing to change slight faster to keep up with the changing within Greater Glasgow. City centre is no longer the bees kness.
Yeah I agree with that. There's no need to go into the city centre anymore compared to even a few years back especially with how good the likes of Glasgow Fort/Silverburn are. Even local shopping in Hamilton/Motherwell etc is fine for what people need these days
christopherrfc
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the m60 now branded on the former go ahead streetlites
www.flickr.com
not my picture
47394 - LJ13GKN
Seen in Clydebank is First Glasgow's former Go-Ahead London Wrightbus Streetlite 47394 - LJ13GKN with a turquoise front and branding for the M60. It arrives at Clydebank Bus Station where it promptly broke down.
www.flickr.com
Unexpected but good to see one of the smaller, local services getting branding. Pretty well used when I've seen it or been on it too since it's been a thingthe m60 now branded on the former go ahead streetlites
not my picture47394 - LJ13GKN
Seen in Clydebank is First Glasgow's former Go-Ahead London Wrightbus Streetlite 47394 - LJ13GKN with a turquoise front and branding for the M60. It arrives at Clydebank Bus Station where it promptly broke down.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
2020 is a shocker and will do permanent damage as people shop online more and work from home (and so the network will shrink). Despite that, and assuming the positive news on vaccines and the like comes to fruition, then I would expect First to continue to invest in Glasgow if only that it allows cascading of newish vehicles across the group.
Of course, it can't be left just to the operators. So many major routes into and within the city centre have on-street parking. A double whammy as it takes up road space that could be used for bus lanes and bus priority whilst also making it easy for car users.
the m60 now branded on the former go ahead streetlites
not my picture47394 - LJ13GKN
Seen in Clydebank is First Glasgow's former Go-Ahead London Wrightbus Streetlite 47394 - LJ13GKN with a turquoise front and branding for the M60. It arrives at Clydebank Bus Station where it promptly broke down.
Just a personal view on the branding. I applaud that they're doing something. The application is a bit clumsy IMHO though and the Glasgow fleet name looks like it was knocked up in about 15 seconds.
Jordan Adam
Established Member
The offside Glasgow logo looks squint, the nearside branding looks far better as it doesn't have the vent above the windows.
GaryBrown156
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I hear what you are saying and to a large extent I agree but at the same time for as long as the Covid 19 pandemic persists personally I don't see First Glasgow scrapping many (if any) double deckers (regardless of age. be they Euro 5 compliant or not). I have long been of the opinion that the vast majority of bus services operated within the Glasgow network should be double decker operated (excluding the Dumbarton and Lanarkshire locals and the M3/29/34/34A/59/64/65/72). Services such as the 1//2/3/19/87/88/240/255/267 should always be decker operated (especially during peak hours).
I know that double deckers cost more money to purchase from new but even a 16+ year old trident or B7 would be more appreciated than a brand new E200 that can't accommodate all passengers due to social distancing restrictions.
Perhaps others on here are more optimistic than me but personally I don't see social distancing being dropped for at least the next 1-2 years. So if I was in charge of FiG I would be seriously considering trading some of my E300's for 2nd hand B9 or E400''s from Ensign or a similar dealer. I don't know the exact covid capacity of a single decker but I seen a B7 in Clydebank yesterday with a "37 persons MAX" sticker on the window so presumably a single decker can only accommodate around 14-20???.
As long as this pandemic persists I can't see Glasgow City Council enforcing the low emissions zone restrictions so that becomes less of an issue as well (although obtaining LEZ compliant vehicles would be desirable).
I know this probably won't happen but would be a sensible move if it did.
Last month I visited my aunt in Juniper Green Edinburgh and noticed that relatively few of their core city centre routes are SD operated. Not saying that both networks are comparable but i can't imagine them operating many core service such as the 2 with single deckers.
JumpinTrainz
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I have always wondered why First Glasgow have been so favourable to single deck stock over the years. Just as an example routes like the 2 (formerly the 62) have always tended to have single deck stock. I can recall the Scania L113s/L94s, B10LAs, B10BLEs, B7Ls, B7RLEs, E300/E200MMCs all being ordered for the 62 (2). During these times of course we have seen deckers such as the Royales and B7TLs, they only lasted a certain amount of time before being cascaded in favour for newer singles. The 2 would appreciate new E400MMCs and during the pandemic it has seen mainly deckers which just works. You are right that social distancing will last years so I hope Glasgow has learned a lesson from all this and should be favouring deckers all the way.
During the Commonwealth Games, Glasgow should have been given some of the new E400s as they were already here and Glasgow needed them but instead England was favoured for all of them.
The fact that Glasgow are scraping together all the deckers they can shows how much they need them and unfortunately single deck stock has become a bit redundant for now. The E200MMCs branded for the 34/34A are starting to spotted on quiet routes like the 46 because they are unsuitable for the busyness of their own route with seat restrictions. The low height E400s would be more suited to the 34/34A long term as the hospital gets very busy.
The traffic lights aren't necessarily out of sync. They'll be running UTC or Scoot software to let them speak to each other and it's all coordinated back at GCC traffic centre. It's not perfect but it is difficult to everything to line up all directions whilst trying to avoid blocking back and catering for heavy pedestrian flows given volumes of traffic.
Buses also stop in between which further complicates matters in terms of time and lane selection. It's why Glasgow has tried to rationalise stops and introduce bus gates to improve operation.
The traffic lights are installed primarily as a safety measure in town, to help pedestrians cross thus minimising accidents and not completely for traffic flow purposes although it can help flow at busy locations.
Whilst some junctions do see traffic move better (not all, some are carnage) what is often ignored is that pedestrians especially vulnerable or elderly ones have to play frogger or hope someone gives way. Traffic becomes dominant and this can make it extremely difficult to cross the road - not the scenario one wants in a city centre. If you went the other way and ripped out the lights but made them all zebra crossings, pedestrians would move quicker and traffic would struggle to move!
A typical pedestrian phase in Central Glasgow would take around 20 second plus depending on lane width off the traffic phases. Easy to see why traffic moves better when it's getting an extra 20s it would have spent sitting at a red light.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
It does seem that enthusiasts tend to default to the "we need more double deckers" position.
Operators have other considerations. Firstly, economics in that for every 3 new deckers, they can buy 4 new singles and that singles are cheaper to run and are less susceptible to anti-social behaviour. Dwell times at stops tend to be slower as people descend stairs and the restricted lower deck capacity means they're less appropriate for older generations. Hence why many operators have gone down the single deck route; of course, you have extremes where some managers are vehemently anti-decker (when in some cases, deckers are definitely required) and this is evident in operations such as First Southampton and, about 20 years ago, Arriva Merseyside.
An interesting case study has been in First West of England (esp Bristol) where many routes were operated by single decks. There has been a wholesale conversion to double decks over the last five years with both new and cascaded vehicles. Partly this has been to accommodate passenger growth; there has been an increase from factors such as a revised fare structure, improvements from the council and a general buoyancy in the local economy though there has also been a widening of headways on some routes e.g. a 12/15 min service with singles is now a 20/30 min headway with DD.
Of course, you can't then legislate for a global pandemic but even if social distancing lasts for 1-2 years i.e. into 2023, then the B7TLs just aren't going to be worth refurbishing. They're 16-17 years old now so they will hang on a while longer; however, I think that that would have been the case anyway. It would have been the Tridents and the older Eclipses that, I suspect, would've been more likely to head off. As it is, the amount of new vehicles will be much lower and a post-Covid pruning will probably account for a number of older fleet anyway.
Seen a Streetlite branded for the M60 on the M11 when I was out earlier and close up the branding looks pretty smooth and well applied. Was surprised to see the M60 getting branding but it's good to see attention being paid to a route like that considering it tends to be all City Centre ones with the exception of the 34A and the Lanarkshire ones
Certainly singles only became popular when First Glasgow appeared! As a passenger almost always favour a decker, and i almost always sit upstairs. Just more comfortable!
I think with Edinburgh , its a denser city and theres more routes with no train alternative!
Still have a few years in them, oldest are 17! Do you use the train now?