Northern franchise awarded to Arriva.

[Jonny]

Hopefully it will make life very difficult for them! The only advantage I see to these skip-stop services.

I thought so - that would be one reason for going to a skip-stop pattern.

 

[northwichcat]

I can't recall Arriva having anything to do with Vivarail and the 230s.

Someone from Arriva did go to Vivarail to look at D-Trains on behalf of ATW.
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There's no reason Northern can't use 185s released from TPE, but these can't be substitutes for the specified new build (with the caveats in the last few posts).

The ITT did rule out including them in the December 17 or December 19 train plans but nothing is ruled if in the future they decide they need trains for extra capacity or new services.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Without sounding dense, I notice people are obsessed with 442's can someone enlighten me as to what I'm missing?

They are coming off the Gatwick Express services in 2016 and have no announced destination, so there is massive speculation about where they are headed.

It helps that the class has always been quite popular due to its unique appearance.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Someone from Arriva did go to Vivarail to look at D-Trains on behalf of ATW.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The ITT did rule out including them in the December 17 or December 19 train plans but nothing is ruled if in the future they decide they need trains for extra capacity or new services.

Well, given the lead time for new stock (which is a given with electrification coming) 185s wouldn't be available within that period anyway..

 

[northwichcat]

Without sounding dense, I notice people are obsessed with 442's can someone enlighten me as to what I'm missing?

A number of people on this forum think there is no need to order new diesel powered stock as electrification can replace diesel stock and provide additional capacity. However, electrification is a slow and expensive process and we need a lot of extra capacity as well as needing new trains to allow life-expired trains to be withdrawn.

Where the 442s come in is their electrical equipment is getting worn out but the carriages are still in usable condition and they are also quite big so potentially they could do a job somewhere. However, some people have doubts about whether they would be suitable for TPE as the dwell times may be longer and acceleration may be slower than using multiple units.

 

[thealexweb]

I do not believe the Windermere services are going via Atherton. There is a clear plan to use EMUs as soon as realistically possible.

TransPennine Express services to/from Windermere will be operated instead by Northern from the start of the new franchise
a minimum of 4 trains per day in each direction between Windermere and Manchester Airport (compared to no more than 2 today). These will be “Northern Connect” services, operated by new electric trains (once the Windermere branch has been electrified and sufficient new trains delivered)
today’s level of service between Windermere and Oxenholme will also be maintained, again to be operated by electric trains once electrified.

 

[Bevan Price]

Does Rotherham Central get any improvements in services? New destinations etc? (Either with TPE or northern)

Apologies. My phones done a wobbly and posted this twice. Not sure how I delete one of them! Apologies.

Pity they closed Rotherham Masborough. That would have allowed Rotherham stops with not much time penalty......

 

[northwichcat]

Well, given the lead time for new stock (which is a given with electrification coming) 185s wouldn't be available within that period anyway..

TPE seem to have an ambitious plan for getting the new trains in place ASAP but the ones produced initially won't replace 185s but will provide extra capacity and it might be TPE aim to release the 350/4s first.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

TPE seem to have an ambitious plan for getting the new trains in place ASAP but the ones produced initially won't replace 185s but will provide extra capacity and it might be TPE aim to release the 350/4s first.

Either way, it's obvious to everyone (on here at least) that the 185 fleet is insufficient for the North TPE route, and with electrification coming sooner or later some of the units will become surplus.

A number of people on this forum think there is no need to order new diesel powered stock as electrification can replace diesel stock and provide additional capacity. However, electrification is a slow and expensive process and we need a lot of extra capacity as well as needing new trains to allow life-expired trains to be withdrawn.

Where the 442s come in is there electrical equipment is getting worn out but the carriages are still in usable condition and they are also quite big so potentially they could do a job somewhere. However, some people have doubts about whether they would be suitable for TPE as the dwell times may be longer and acceleration may be slower than using multiple units.

In enthusiast circles the 442s are held in high regard, and given that they were specified as an option in the ITT for TPE, it isn't surprising that they were expected (or hoped) to play a part at least in the medium-term. Even following the announcement of the new franchise people are still looking for any sign that they may still play a part...

 

[43096]

There were reports last time Connex originally put in a better bid than First/Kelios for TPE but the SRA decided to give First/Kelios some 'constructive feedback' on their bid to make it better (possibly because of Connex screwing up South Central) and then they eventually won but the bidding process is different now.

The story is that First were negotiating with the SRA on the financial terms of the TPE contract, with the SRA wanting more payment/less subsidy from First. First knew that the only other company in the running was Connex. Dean Finch, who was leading the First negotiations, apparently replied "Fine, and which of you is going to tell the minister you're going with Connex?" At that point the SRA position collapsed and the deal was done.

 

[Bevan Price]

TPE seem to have an ambitious plan for getting the new trains in place ASAP but the ones produced initially won't replace 185s but will provide extra capacity and it might be TPE aim to release the 350/4s first.

They will probably need at least 3 new emus (2 diagrams + 1 spare) for a Liverpool / Scotland service, so it might make sense to displace the 350/4s from the Manchester/Scotland services at about the same time.

I only hope that the new 5 car emus do not have some "Voyager-clone" style of bodywork with a full coach wasted on first class. That would only give about 240 standard class seats, not a lot better than the 350/4s which are already overloaded on some services. They could really do with at least 300 seats on many services.

 

[fowler9]

They are great lads in West Allerton

I take it you are one of them. Ha ha. Well done that man. If you are one of them can I just say the excellent service you provide does not go unappreciated.

 

[wigwamman]

Interesting times ahead. Funnily enough the Safety Director and head of operational Safety who have "left" Northern in the last 18 months may end up back there as they were part of the original ATN Management team.

 

[absolutelymilk]

It helps that the class 442 has always been quite popular due to its unique appearance.

I have never understood what exactly people mean when they say this - what exactly is unique about it?

 

[JaJaWa]

I can't recall Arriva having anything to do with Vivarail and the 230s.

The only two post-privatisation companies that the Chairman of Vivarail has worked for are Chiltern and LOROL, both part of Arriva. I'd say he might have some links.

 

[Greybeard33]

Why can't they be 172s with a different engine that does meet the spec? An engine change doesn't require a class number change.

Body work and crash structure wise, if they can still build a 387, they should still be able to build a 172?

The Long Term Passenger Rolling Stock Strategy for the Rail Industry, 3rd Edition, Feb 2015, said:

It is probably unlikely that a business case can be made at present to fit a Stage IIIB
compliant diesel engine (or engines) to any of the existing British DMU types. The D-Train
project being developed by Vivarail proposes to examine the feasibility, reliability and
business case of fitting pairs of smaller Stage IIIB compliant automotive diesel engines
beneath former LUL vehicles.

The document was produced jointly by the Rail Delivery Group (including an Arriva representative) and all three ROSCOs, and incorporated input from the train builders.

The Hitachi bi-modes make room for the Stage IIIB engines by having raised floors in 26m long carriages.

 

[Stats]

Doesn't ever usually happen on day 1 like that. Route swaps and stuff usually coincide with a main timetable change. It has already been said that the Barton service will not transfer to EMT until that franchise is re-let in 2017.

The ITT stated remapping of Barrow, Windermere and Blackpool services would be implemented from day 1.

 

[humbersidejim]

Can anyone clarify what's going to happen to the Hull - Picadilly services for me?

Am I right in thinking these will effectively become stoppers west of Leeds? If so, what impact will that have on journey times?

Sounds like a mixed blessing for Hull: Better services to Leeds thanks to Northern connect, but slower to Manchester (or change at Leeds on to a fast?)

 

[Tetchytyke]

Without sounding dense, I notice people are obsessed with 442's can someone enlighten me as to what I'm missing?

I'm not sure what the deal with the Plastic Pigs is either.

I'm still laughing at the fact whoever drafted the ITT put it in though, given enthusiasts' obsession with the things. Obviously a sense of humour. I wonder who on here did it?

 

[Haydn1971]

The Hitachi bi-modes make room for the Stage IIIB engines by having raised floors in 26m long carriages.

Now there is a business case for a manufacturer doing the problem solving, either a 125mph DMU with power in each carriage, or perhaps more likely a 90mph capable bi-mode under diesel power given the gains made in traction units since IEP was spec'ed out, with 125mph under wired power... All in a flat floor 1/3 - 2/3 door design !

 

[47802]

The Long Term Passenger Rolling Stock Strategy for the Rail Industry,
The Hitachi bi-modes make room for the Stage IIIB engines by having raised floors in 26m long carriages.

I thought that was more to do with the size of the engine used on the AT300 and that a smaller engine will be less of a problem.

Pointless discussion really as the winning manufacturers have clearly proposed solutions which satisfy Arriva and First.

 

[fowler9]

They are coming off the Gatwick Express services in 2016 and have no announced destination, so there is massive speculation about where they are headed.

It helps that the class has always been quite popular due to its unique appearance.

I don't follow to be honest. I really don't see how it helps that they are popular because of their unique appearance, if it is indeed unique (Looks like 5 Mark 3's with a cab at each end). Has being a small unique class ever helped any rolling stock in general? I would be gobsmacked if First and Arriva got the new franchises based on gutting some EMU's from down south and re building them as LHCS.

 

[TUC]

Some slightly confusing messages from Northern Rail on its website regarding the new franchise http://www.northernrail.org/news/7807

'Has Northern lost its franchise?

No, Northern Rail has not lost its franchise. As a train operating company Northern doesn’t bid to win the franchise. The bids are made by owning groups, such as Abellio or Arriva who then set up a train operating company to deliver their franchise bid. The operating company that is delivering Northern services today is owned by Serco and Abellio. The next franchise owner, which we have found out today is Arriva, will set up a new train operating company that will take over from the current train operating company on 1 April 2016...'

OK, technically correct in that it is parent companies creating new separate companies that bid for franchises so in that very technical sense they haven't lost the franchise (although I think this is called putting a brave face on it.)

However, to then confuse things further, it goes onto say:

'Who has owned Northern in the past?

Serco and Abellio (Northern was created in 2004 by merging First North Western and Arriva Trains Northern)
12 December 2004 – 31 March 2016

Arriva Rail North Limited
1 April 2016 - March 2025'.

Hang on, they said that Northern was a separate TOC created to run the current franchise, but now they're talking as if Northern was created by a merger between First North Western and Arriva Trains Northern, which it wasn't. It's correct that their relevant franchise areas for those former TOCs were merged (with the trans pennine lines taken out of the middle) but it wasn't a merger of TOCs.

If Northern Rail are even confused about the history of their own business ...

 

[urpert]

They are coming off the Gatwick Express services in 2016 and have no announced destination, so there is massive speculation about where they are headed.



It helps that the class has always been quite popular due to its unique appearance.

It also had some pretty unique features for an EMU built in the late 80s: a proper buffet, compartment first class, a 'proper' guards van, powered interior doors, a phone box... Though none of these unique features survived their spell with GatEx.

(The observant may recognise my avatar pic as a 442's vestibule.)

 

[JaJaWa]

Has Northern lost its franchise?

No, Northern Rail has not lost its franchise...

I believe a lot of senior staff are staying on, and the branding will be staying pretty much the same, so they are calling it a continuation of the current company rather than a replacement.

Agree that the message is very different to what is normally posted when a franchise is lost, normally there is a statement about how they 'would have been better' rather than the logo of the new company!

 

[TUC]

I believe a lot of senior staff are staying on, and the branding will be staying pretty much the same, so they are calling it a continuation of the current company rather than a replacement.

I think a continuation of the current company is the exact opposite of what many passengers want!

 

[urbophile]

It looks like the service pattern between Liverpool-Manchester via Newton le Willows will be no improvement. One an hour (presumably electric) to Mcr Airport; one an hour to Victoria and Bradford, which will have to be a DMU for a long time yet. So the benefits of electrification have been ignored.

 

[Chris125]

The only two post-privatisation companies that the Chairman of Vivarail has worked for are Chiltern and LOROL, both part of Arriva. I'd say he might have some links.

Of course, but I wouldn't say that makes it an 'Arriva innovation'.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I'm not sure what the deal with the Plastic Pigs is either.

I'm still laughing at the fact whoever drafted the ITT put it in though, given enthusiasts' obsession with the things. Obviously a sense of humour. I wonder who on here did it?

In all honesty I don't think its the 442's themselves that certain forum members were getting excited about but more the fact that they would have been loco hauled.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It also had some pretty unique features for an EMU built in the late 80s: a proper buffet, compartment first class, a 'proper' guards van, powered interior doors, a phone box... Though none of these unique features survived their spell with GatEx.

I always regarded it as a Mk3 with all the bad features (excessively bright lighting, slam doors, IC70 seating, vestibule doors that slam back and forth) taken out. It's a shame the "real" Mk3 was not the same.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I believe a lot of senior staff are staying on, and the branding will be staying pretty much the same, so they are calling it a continuation of the current company rather than a replacement.

Agree that the message is very different to what is normally posted when a franchise is lost, normally there is a statement about how they 'would have been better' rather than the logo of the new company!

It's perhaps following in the footsteps of ScotRail?