Northern to London - could it work?

[Philip]

One thing I never quite understand with this 'Northern should run three trains a day to London' idea, and seemingly the corresponding aversion to advance tickets on Avanti is that any ticket bought for the Northern service effectively becomes 'booked train only by default, as there is only one option at the time any prospective passenger is likely to travel.

Part of the reason for 3 trains per day is that it'd keep the costs down and so potentially this would allow Northern to sell some very cheap tickets for the service, say £20 Northern-only SVR without restrictions and £7.50 Northern Advance singles, none of which would be possible if they introduced an all day service because of the increased cost.

If they were clever with timing, it could become almost like a people's service; offering people in Manchester & the North West in general the opportunity to have a day out in London at a very affordable price without having to change.

So for example southbound departures from Piccadilly, Oxford Road or Victoria at 06:30, 07:30 & 09:00 for late morning or lunchtime arrivals into London. Northbound departures from Euston at 17:00, 18:00 & 19:30. It'd allow passengers anything between 4 hours & 13 hours to spend in London. Avanti would continue to cater for the business market, Northern would be focusing on leisure.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Part of the reason for 3 trains per day is that it'd keep the costs down and so potentially this would allow Northern to sell some very cheap tickets for the service, say £20 Northern-only SVR without restrictions and £7.50 Northern Advance singles, none of which would be possible if they introduced an all day service because of the increased cost.

If they were clever with timing, it could become almost like a people's service; offering people in Manchester & the North West in general the opportunity to have a day out in London at a very affordable price without having to change.

So for example southbound departures from Piccadilly, Oxford Road or Victoria at 06:30, 07:30 & 09:00 for late morning or lunchtime arrivals into London. Northbound departures from Euston at 17:00, 18:00 & 19:30. It'd allow passengers anything between 4 hours & 13 hours to spend in London. Avanti would continue to cater for the business market, Northern would be focusing on leisure.

I've read this whole thread and I'm still not fully sure, why is this idea speculated for Northern (who don't know anything South of Crewe*) instead of LNWR, who already run the way up from London to Crewe (157mi 35ch) vs Northern already running Crewe to Piccadilly (30mi 41ch). It would seem easier to get LNWR to run this service rather than Northern, especially with the idea of using 350/2s.

* Stoke and Nottingham are both further South, but Crewe was mentioned in #1 as a possible stop

 

[JonathanH]

Part of the reason for 3 trains per day is that it'd keep the costs down and so potentially this would allow Northern to sell some very cheap tickets for the service, say £20 Northern-only SVR without restrictions and £7.50 Northern Advance singles, none of which would be possible if they introduced an all day service because of the increased cost.

£20 return? Is that realistic in any way? Why is it possible to offer £20 returns and £7.50 singles because there are only three trains? Is it because the subsidy stretches further if fewer loss making trains are run?

If they were clever with timing, it could become almost like a people's service; offering people in Manchester & the North West in general the opportunity to have a day out in London at a very affordable price without having to change.

Do people in Manchester and the North West need to have a very affordable day out in London? I'm not sure it should be the priority, relative to giving them an affordable day out in their local area.

So for example southbound departures from Piccadilly, Oxford Road or Victoria at 06:30, 07:30 & 09:00 for late morning or lunchtime arrivals into London. Northbound departures from Euston at 17:00, 18:00 & 19:30. It'd allow passengers anything between 4 hours & 13 hours to spend in London. Avanti would continue to cater for the business market, Northern would be focusing on leisure.

Huh? Each train formation makes one return journey to London and does no other work? That isn't very effective utilisation of rolling stock.

How do these trains get staffed? Do the traincrew have a day out in London as well?

The laudable aim of giving people in the North West a cheap excursion to London seems highly at odds with the expense of your proposed operation.

 

[liamf656]

Part of the reason for 3 trains per day is that it'd keep the costs down

It's impossible to say you want to introduce such a service while keeping costs down. That's 3+ extra trains, sets of crews, route and traction knowledge, track access rights and so on. Keeping the costs down would be to not bother with the service at all!

and so potentially this would allow Northern to sell some very cheap tickets for the service, say £20 Northern-only SVR without restrictions and £7.50 Northern Advance singles, none of which would be possible if they introduced an all day service because of the increased cost.

Don't Avanti provide some cheap fares at certain times? I'd be more inclined to use them (or even endure a 350) even if it's a little more expensive. I wouldn't consider using your idea, sorry

If they were clever with timing, it could become almost like a people's service; offering people in Manchester & the North West in general the opportunity to have a day out in London at a very affordable price without having to change.

You could catch any Avanti service at any time of day to achieve this as its flexible

So for example southbound departures from Piccadilly, Oxford Road or Victoria at 06:30, 07:30 & 09:00 for late morning or lunchtime arrivals into London. Northbound departures from Euston at 17:00, 18:00 & 19:30. It'd allow passengers anything between 4 hours & 13 hours to spend in London. Avanti would continue to cater for the business market, Northern would be focusing on leisure.

You say you want to make it as cost effective to Northern yet you want 3 trains and 3 sets of crews to sit in London for at least 4 hours each? Besides I don't think 4 hours would attract enough people

 

[Howardh]

Do people in Manchester and the North West need to have a very affordable day out in London?

Yes.

I would prefer if people asked us what we want, rather than telling us what we want!

London's the capital, and should be easily and cheaply accessible to all.

 

[JonathanH]

I would prefer if people asked us what we want, rather than telling us what we want!

OK. How often do you want a day out in London? Would you go on a rainy Tuesday in January? How would you propose balancing demand on 'unpopular' days against demand on 'popular' days?

London's the capital, and should be easily and cheaply accessible to all.

Should the train fare to London be the same from every station in the country?

The previous poster suggested a fare of £20 from Manchester to London. Should the fare from Manchester to London be cheaper than the fare from Dover, or Southampton?

 

[Howardh]

OK. How often do you want a day out in London? Would you go on a rainy Tuesday in January? How would you propose balancing demand on 'unpopular' days against demand on 'popular' days?


Should the train fare to London be the same from every station in the country?

The previous poster suggested a fare of £20 from Manchester to London. Should the fare from Manchester to London be cheaper than the fare from Dover, or Southampton?

Yes, I certainly would go on a wet day in January (first Weds), indeed I intend to go for one more day and also a short break later in January, albeit staying at Milton Keynes. Also, moving forward, I intend to do Bolton..London..Brighton day trips.
Plus cheap fares to London opens up Heathrow, Gatwick plus City.
If cheap fares are offered early then those empty seats would surely fill??

 

[cle]

Wigan to Euston is 10 minutes quicker generally, than Piccadilly. It’s only one stop too. For some folks, that’s far more appealing.

Grannies and dopey annual travellers need amenities and retail. Much like flyers. Most people just arrive 5 mins before and get on. Yes Wigan is grim and grey, but it’s efficient.

 

[Neptune]

Part of the reason for 3 trains per day is that it'd keep the costs down and so potentially this would allow Northern to sell some very cheap tickets for the service, say £20 Northern-only SVR without restrictions and £7.50 Northern Advance singles, none of which would be possible if they introduced an all day service because of the increased cost.

Will these finger in the air low fares cover the additional crew costs, additional stock, additional track access and now additional stabling charges on top of startup costs such as training?

If they were clever with timing, it could become almost like a people's service; offering people in Manchester & the North West in general the opportunity to have a day out in London at a very affordable price without having to change.

Is this ‘offering the people in the North west’ or is it more ‘offering Philip on his free Northern pass’. What about people in London or the huge market in Bushey wanting a cheap day out in Manchester. Not possible. It all seems a very one sided affair.

So for example southbound departures from Piccadilly, Oxford Road or Victoria at 06:30, 07:30 & 09:00 for late morning or lunchtime arrivals into London. Northbound departures from Euston at 17:00, 18:00 & 19:30. It'd allow passengers anything between 4 hours & 13 hours to spend in London. Avanti would continue to cater for the business market, Northern would be focusing on leisure.

Ok so we’re keeping costs down are we?

These projected times would bust the maximum turn of both drivers and conductors so you’d be paying 6 pairs of crew to work a service in one direction and sit on the cushions in the other. Even the crew working the 0900 up service would bust their hours working the 1700 down service. Not cost effective.

You’d need 3 additional trains too, no chance of one unit working 2 returns, we’re just going to pay for 3 units to sit around in sidings for a few hours off region. You’re also looking at stabling fees and for 6 taxis to get a driver to/from the sidings.

The paper thin business case for this is getting even thinner.

 

[yorksrob]

It's impossible to say you want to introduce such a service while keeping costs down. That's 3+ extra trains, sets of crews, route and traction knowledge, track access rights and so on. Keeping the costs down would be to not bother with the service at all!


Don't Avanti provide some cheap fares at certain times? I'd be more inclined to use them (or even endure a 350) even if it's a little more expensive. I wouldn't consider using your idea, sorry

You could catch any Avanti service at any time of day to achieve this as its flexible

You say you want to make it as cost effective to Northern yet you want 3 trains and 3 sets of crews to sit in London for at least 4 hours each? Besides I don't think 4 hours would attract enough people

Avanti's cheap fares are all advanced purchase though.

And while you might not use cheap walk on fares on a slower route, plenty of people (including myself) have voted with their feet and use them on LNWR.

OK. How often do you want a day out in London? Would you go on a rainy Tuesday in January? How would you propose balancing demand on 'unpopular' days against demand on 'popular' days?


Should the train fare to London be the same from every station in the country?

The previous poster suggested a fare of £20 from Manchester to London. Should the fare from Manchester to London be cheaper than the fare from Dover, or Southampton?

It's not just about a day out in London. Some have relatives in the South and like to visit them now and again.

The LNWR pricing structure also offers reasonably priced period returns.

 

[Bald Rick]

London's the capital, and should be easily and cheaply accessible to all.

It already is.

 

[JonathanH]

And while you might not use cheap walk on fares on a slower route, plenty of people (including myself) have voted with their feet and use them on LNWR.

The comments being made above aren't about the LNR fares. They are about the suggestion that fares could be cheaper than LNR offer if it was Northern operating daily 'excursions' to London.

 

[A S Leib]

London's the capital, and should be easily and cheaply accessible to all.

It isn't massively fair for the fare from Manchester to London to be cheaper than that from Southampton to London when the latter's less than half the distance.

Speaking of Southampton, if one change is a travesty for cheap Manchester–London trips, wouldn't it be better to focus on setting up a cheaper alternative to the core CrossCountry routes? Changing at. Crewe, Euston and Waterloo or Crewe, Nuneaton, Leamington Spa, Banbury, Reading and Basingstoke to get to Hampshire and Bournemouth without using CrossCountry, or changing at Crewe, Birmingham, Worcester and Bristol to get from Manchester to Exeter* probably doesn't sound attractive to most people.

*I know it can be done with one change at Newport / Cardiff Central, but even if that route's cheaper Manchester–Newport's overcrowded. EDIT: splitting at Bridgwater (via Hereford only for the northern bit) comes to £127.50 for a flexible return without a railcard, which is just £1.50 cheaper than splitting at Wolverhampton, Cheltenham and Bristol Parkway and getting XC anyway.

 

[The Planner]

So for example southbound departures from Piccadilly, Oxford Road or Victoria at 06:30, 07:30 & 09:00 for late morning or lunchtime arrivals into London. Northbound departures from Euston at 17:00, 18:00 & 19:30. It'd allow passengers anything between 4 hours & 13 hours to spend in London. Avanti would continue to cater for the business market, Northern would be focusing on leisure.

Where does 13 hours come from?

 

[yorksrob]

The comments being made above aren't about the LNR fares. They are about the suggestion that fares could be cheaper than LNR offer if it was Northern operating daily 'excursions' to London.

Yes and no.

I understand that a £20 figure might have been put forward on the thread, however the principle being discussed is whether people will use a slower route if cheap walk-on fares are available. LNWR confirms that this is the case.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Grannies and dopey annual travellers need amenities and retail.

Wha? I usually want to purchase carry-on food and a coffee before boarding, one of the reasons I'd choose Manchester.

 

[A S Leib]

Where does 13 hours come from?

I think they looked at the 06:30 southbound and 19:30 northbound departures and forgot to take off the time it takes to get from Piccadilly to Euston.

I'm not quite sure who'd use a 19:30 departure; if attractions close at 17:00 then that's two and a half hours to have supper and get back to Euston, so most passengers not going beyond London and not visiting friends or family would likely just get an earlier departure unless it's massively cheaper.

 

[Neptune]

Wigan to Euston is 10 minutes quicker generally, than Piccadilly. It’s only one stop too. For some folks, that’s far more appealing.

Grannies and dopey annual travellers need amenities and retail. Much like flyers. Most people just arrive 5 mins before and get on. Yes Wigan is grim and grey, but it’s efficient.

Generalising is alive and well. This is such a ‘my way is right’ style post.

I am a regular commuter so to me the train is simply a tool to get me to work and back but on the occasions I take a long journey I prefer to go through a railhead with amenities and retail so I can get a meal deal and some stuff to graze on, maybe see if there’s a book or magazine I fancy and maybe go for a coffee.

I am a grandparent but I am the wrong gender to be a granny and I am certainly not dopey so am I doing my travel all wrong?

 

[FlyingPotato]

I support new services a lot, sometimes too much
I'd like a new operator between London and Manchester
But I can't understand why northern, especially as they don't have 110mph stock
If anything do lnwr all the way to Manchester or as people have said do a ticket deal between northern and lnwr

 

[Howardh]

Wha? I usually want to purchase carry-on food and a coffee before boarding, one of the reasons I'd choose Manchester.

I can get chips outside Wigan North Western! The one advantage of Piccadilly is that if you don't have a reserved seat already, and you are there early enough, you get your choice of unreserved seat - sometimes Scotland - London trains are standing-only; so I wouldn't go from Wigan without a reservation.

 

[chorleyjeff]

I think they looked at the 06:30 southbound and 19:30 northbound departures and forgot to take off the time it takes to get from Piccadilly to Euston.

I'm not quite sure who'd use a 19:30 departure; if attractions close at 17:00 then that's two and a half hours to have supper and get back to Euston, so most passengers not going beyond London and not visiting friends or family would likely just get an earlier departure unless it's massively cheaper.

Who has supper between 5 and 7 pm ?

 

[Burton Road]

Slightly off topic question, but is there a reason that the WC and EC Intercity franchises were never integrated with the regional or fNSE services that they share tracks with in the same way that GWR has a single operator into Paddington? I don't necessarily mean all the local services around Manchester and Birmingham, but why not with LNW, TPE NW and the various long distance regional services in the North West?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can get chips outside Wigan North Western!

I hope you don't take chips on the train, that's really quite antisocial as they stink. I'm talking about purchasing stuff for the journey, not wolfing down chips.

The one advantage of Piccadilly is that if you don't have a reserved seat already, and you are there early enough, you get your choice of unreserved seat - sometimes Scotland - London trains are standing-only; so I wouldn't go from Wigan without a reservation.

That (and the fact the Manchesters are usually quieter than the Scotlands) is a VERY good reason.

Slightly off topic question, but is there a reason that the WC and EC Intercity franchises were never integrated with the regional or fNSE services that they share tracks with in the same way that GWR has a single operator into Paddington? I don't necessarily mean all the local services around Manchester and Birmingham, but why not with LNW, TPE NW and the various long distance regional services in the North West?

Because that would produce a monster? GWR and EMR are made up of TOCs that basically existed to connect with them or integrated well with them. If you're talking Avanti or LNER, who are you going to integrate it with? If you put Northern and LNR together you'd just create a mess, neither would really understand the other properly.

 

[YorkRailFan]

If you're talking Avanti or LNER, who are you going to integrate it with?

I guess a merger between Avanti and LNR was being suggested.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I guess a merger between Avanti and LNR was being suggested.

I could see some sense in that, as it would at least tidy up London terminal working (and mean you could do stuff like peak Northampton fasts using Pendolinos and the likes) but unlike GWR Northern at the outer end would still be independent. And I think it'd be politically impossible to integrate it, as Burnham et al wouldn't give up their control.

Having said that, I doubt Street would allow WMR to be run from London, so you'd need to separate that off, which was originally dropped because the overlap is just too great.

And of course on GWR a load of services have gone over to TfL, so there are two TOCs out of London again.

 

[gg1]

Because that would produce a monster? GWR and EMR are made up of TOCs that basically existed to connect with them or integrated well with them. If you're talking Avanti or LNER, who are you going to integrate it with? If you put Northern and LNR together you'd just create a mess, neither would really understand the other properly.

You could make a case for splitting off the North East element of Northern and merging it into LNER, it's largely isolated from the rest of the Northern network and naturally feeds into longer distance LNER services in the same way as your GWR/EMR examples. The rest of Northern is probably best left as is.

 

[YorkRailFan]

I could see some sense in that, as it would at least tidy up London terminal working (and mean you could do stuff like peak Northampton fasts using Pendolinos and the likes) but unlike GWR Northern at the outer end would still be independent. And I think it'd be politically impossible to integrate it, as Burnham et al wouldn't give up their control.

Having said that, I doubt Street would allow WMR to be run from London, so you'd need to separate that off, which was originally dropped because the overlap is just too great.

And of course on GWR a load of services have gone over to TfL, so there are two TOCs out of London again.

It's like suggesting a merger between LNER and Great Northern, may make sense on a map, doesn't make sense due to the huge overlap between Great Northern and other GTR TOCs.

 

[Philip]

Is this ‘offering the people in the North west’ or is it more ‘offering Philip on his free Northern pass’.

It'd be a nice perk yes (although the priv off peak return is good enough as it is), but the point of this idea is about providing a much cheaper, longer but direct alternative to Avanti from the North West to London. LNR could extend to Manchester, but they haven't done that so far so Northern starting their own service is an alternative idea. It might not make a profit, but there is a public service element to the railway and I'm there are plenty of existing services which keep making a loss but continue to run.

I'm sure there could be some arrangement made where the traincrew of a different TOC work the trains on behalf of Northern. If Northern used 350/2s then they could hire LNR traincrew to work the services; they would only have to route-learn Crewe-Manchester.

This sort of thing has been done before between TPE & Northern. LNR staff from the nearest depot (Crewe?) go pass or taxi to Manchester then work the Northern Euston service, then they work or pass back an LNR service to Crewe. The same arrangement in reverse for the evening services back north.

 

[6Gman]

I can get chips outside Wigan North Western! The one advantage of Piccadilly is that if you don't have a reserved seat already, and you are there early enough, you get your choice of unreserved seat - sometimes Scotland - London trains are standing-only; so I wouldn't go from Wigan without a reservation.

And they don't sell pie baps in Manchester!

 

[cle]

And they don't sell pie baps in Manchester!

Came to make a pie gag. Very subjective stuff - chips are delicious to me. Can't bear the smell of an egg sandwich. Either no food or all is welcome. The amenities of Piccadilly etc include McDonalds/BK, Leon, Subway - all smell.

I was messing around really re amenities, but thinking more about the time needed, and the occasion/ceremony of it all, vs just getting on the train.

And I think northerners would far value cheaper London trips than almost anything else. Certainly people in Liverpool do not ever need to go to Hull at any scale - or Bradford to Sheffield, or other sacred cows this board goes on about. London is the capital, economic hub and also leisure/tourism/culture hub - everyone should have good access to it. As for cheaper / distance, that's for the market, in theory - to determine.