South Wales 'Metro' updates

[Northerngirl]

Queen street not being done is mostly due to complexity and the fact they can't do to central anyway (they don't own it). Cathays also has complexity because of the uni deciding a railways was the perfect location for highly sensitive brain scanning equipment...

There's a section from heath junction north to the tunnel, and east to coryton. And then another small section on the bay line. It's meant to continue from just past Caerphilly in chunks with various gaps all the way to Rhymney.

I'm no expert, but isn't most of the electrical interference going to come from the motors & transformers on the train, not the wires

 

[MikePJ]

I'm no expert, but isn't most of the electrical interference going to come from the motors & transformers on the train, not the wires

The source of the interference is definitely the train, but the wires will act like a giant aerial, helping to transmit the noise further away from the railway. I believe the main instrument that’s a concern is a high-end electron microscope in the “translational research hub” building. A lot of Cardiff University buildings are built on former railway sidings, so the campus has ended up being a strip of land either side of the railway.

Is that the case? I thought any running south of Central was using the diesel?

To be honest I'm not entirely sure. I recall seeing somewhere (but now can't find the source) that they expected Barry and Penarth services to mostly work with batteries, and that the diesel engine was only planned to be used routinely for the Bridgend trains. There was also a whole discussion in the 756 thread about the size of the fuel tanks, which is one reason why the 756s haven't been introduced sooner - they just don't have that much range when used on diesel only.

 

[AdamWW]

To be honest I'm not entirely sure. I recall seeing somewhere (but now can't find the source) that they expected Barry and Penarth services to mostly work with batteries, and that the diesel engine was only planned to be used routinely for the Bridgend trains. There was also a whole discussion in the 756 thread about the size of the fuel tanks, which is one reason why the 756s haven't been introduced sooner - they just don't have that much range when used on diesel only.

I've seen conflicting information, including the suggestion that even Bridgend should be possible on battery in normal operation.

A lot of Cardiff University buildings are built on former railway sidings

And I believe one is roughly where the station building for the former Cardiff Parade station used to be.

 

[positron]

Is the complexity of the "it can't be done" or the "now more complicated" variety? It seems extraordinary that something as important (but mundane) as electrification of railways could be scuppered by something like this.

"Now more complicated" - it's doable there's certain shielding they can add iirc. But given they've gone for discontinuous anyway they probably thought they might aswell avoid the whole problem.

 

[John R]

"Now more complicated" - it's doable there's certain shielding they can add iirc. But given they've gone for discontinuous anyway they probably thought they might aswell avoid the whole problem.

I would agree that having decided to go the discontinuous route, it makes sense to avoid the issue by not wiring the affected section.

 

[positron]

I recall seeing somewhere (but now can't find the source) that they expected Barry and Penarth services to mostly work with batteries, and that the diesel engine was only planned to be used routinely for the Bridgend trains.

I've seen conflicting information, including the suggestion that even Bridgend should be possible on battery in normal operation.

https://www.modernrailways.com/article/tfw-diesel-flirts-may-start-rhymney-line

He was confident the Class 756s’ batteries will store enough charge for the units to travel from Cardiff Queen Street to Bridgend via Barry and back without recharging. He did not expect their diesel engines to recharge batteries during the round trip in normal operating conditions.

Sounds like the diesels are for cases of disruption. And probably even just because the exact range wasn't known at the time of procurement. Possibly when batteries deteriorate in years to come there will be more of a need for the diesel.
Perhaps it's also so the trains have deployment flexibility, for example in future they could be moved to other lines if for example more 398s are ordered for Penarth.

 

[stuu]

"Now more complicated" - it's doable there's certain shielding they can add iirc. But given they've gone for discontinuous anyway they probably thought they might aswell avoid the whole problem.

There's a railway near Wilhelmshaven in Germany which has had to be shielded to avoid electromagnetic radiation interference from the electrification. It's pretty substantial, I can see why TfW didn't bother:

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[edwin_m]

Part of the problem is when the current goes out through the wire and back through the rails, it creates a loop that can induce alternating currents into other conductors rather like a giant and hugely inefficient version of inductive vehicle charging. This can be reduced by making the loops smaller, either forcing the return current into a conductor near the wire (as with booster transformer AC overhead) or by forcing the supply current into a conductor near the rail (by providing a parallel feeder and multiple connections to the wire). There was something similar on the Trafford Metrolink extension, although being a DC system the details would have been rather different.

 

[ABB125]

There's a railway near Wilhelmshaven in Germany which has had to be shielded to avoid electromagnetic radiation interference from the electrification. It's pretty substantial, I can see why TfW didn't bother:

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Very interesting - do you know why the shielding was needed there? I can't see anything obvious

 

[59CosG95]

Very interesting - do you know why the shielding was needed there? I can't see anything obvious

This is from a DB press release (translated into English):

The gallery building in Sengwarden is completed​

10.11.2022

After just over a year of construction, the time has come - the gallery structure in Sengwarden is completed. When the line goes into operation in December 2022, electrically powered freight trains will be able to run to and from JadeWeserPort through the new structure.
In collaboration with the Fraunhofer Institute, the railway developed this modern solution because emissions from the overhead electrical lines affect the radio reception of the nearby naval station. As a result, the railway line was tunneled over a length of 2,300 metres.
The moss green steel structure, which is around ten metres high, was completely covered with noise barriers on the northern side towards Sengwarden. The southern side, facing the neighbouring Fedderwarden, is open except for a 450-metre-long section.

• 
• 
• 
• 

After construction started in summer 2021, the construction roads were first laid and cable and civil engineering work was carried out. The steel structure including the overhead line system was then built. Remaining work will continue until mid-2023. This includes the dismantling of the construction site and the construction roads as well as the replanting of adjacent areas.
Electric train operation in test run
Test runs are currently taking place along the entire route. In December of this year, the approximately 68-kilometer-long railway line between Oldenburg and Wilhelmshaven and the JadeWeserPort will be put into operation. Clear the way for a quiet and climate-friendly railway!

Original link: https://www.oldenburg-wilhelmshaven...bauwerk-in-sengwarden-ist-fertiggestellt.html

 

[stuu]

It's next to the low frequency radio transmitter the German Navy uses to broadcast messages to its submarines

 

[MikePJ]

Another consultation has gone live - this covers three different forthcoming changes to the Core Valley Lines:

1 - Plan for energising overhead line electrification (OLE) between Heath and Caerphilly and between Heath and Coryton
This is detailed in Appendix A of the document. The proposed energisation date is 30th October 2024. This includes the rigid conductor bar in the bay platform at Caerphilly station. It also contains proposed changes to the Sectional Appendix showing the new OLE and includes new isolation diagrams showing how the current can be switched off.

2 - Line speed improvements on the Coryton branch.
A blockade of the Coryton branch from 27th October - 2nd November will result in changes in line speed allowing for 45mph and 50mph running on the branch. This will include "head of train" speed restrictions around two footpath crossings, where the driver will be allowed to return to line speed as soon as the front of the train has passed over the crossing.

3 - Cardiff Bay station new platform opening and temporary closure of old platform
A blockade of the Bay branch from 27th October - 2nd November will result in the single line being slewed across into the alignment for the new "Down" line for the first 300m of the line from the Bay end. The new island platform (platform 2) will open and the old bay platform (platform 1) will close temporarily for a rebuild. Some signalling equipment will be moved as part of these works.

 

[5021]

As long as I’ve been following the project Queen St has not been due to be electrified.

There's to be no electrification on the TAM lines south of where it ends now (about a mile north of Cathays) nor on the Rhymney line southwards from immediately north of the A48 bridge to save the cost of wiring the relatively complex junctions in the Queen Street area - as well as the university issue. Not sure if we can advertise here but full details are in a well known book of track diagrams - in which I have no financial interest BTW

To amplify an earlier post, the Class 150s are falling due for Class C6 overhauls which TfW do not propose to fund - unlike GWR whose fleet is in the same position.

 

[MikePJ]

Going back to the last major project plan consultation in January 2024 the target was to energise wires to Coryton and Caerphilly by November 2024 (looks like that's on target) but also to energise one track on the Bay branch (which looks like it's not happening). We did think that was a strange decision at the time, because having live OLE would complicate construction. The second track on the Bay branch was then due to open and be energised in May 2025 - it's likely that they've put back the OLE to May until all the trackwork has been done.

 

[Avowedsevern]

I’m massively out of date with the latest info, but last I recall early this year/late last year the official documentation was showing that several lines (e.g. Treherbert) should’ve started running 231’s (or maybe 756’s?) temporarily for half a year or so until the 398’s were ready to be rolled out. How come this never came into fruition?

 

[MikePJ]

I’m massively out of date with the latest info, but last I recall early this year/late last year the official documentation was showing that several lines (e.g. Treherbert) should’ve started running 231’s (or maybe 756’s?) temporarily for half a year or so until the 398’s were ready to be rolled out. How come this never came into fruition?

The current state of play is that the 231s are on Rhymney-Barry/Bridgend services. 756s have yet to run in passenger service but may yet appear on the Treherbert/Aberdare/Merthyr services before the end of the year - we're waiting on driver training. 398s are delayed with wheelset issues (and Taff's Well Depot for the 398s still isn't finished).

One more thing: driver training runs with 756s show in RealTimeTrains on the Aberdare branch on most weekdays. There are two runs per day - out from Canton at around 0646 and back by 1030, and another one in the afternoon, leaving Canton at 1346 and back by 1730. Looks like they ran most days this week just gone, and there's one out today. So driver training is definitely progressing.

 

[alholmes]

I’m massively out of date with the latest info, but last I recall early this year/late last year the official documentation was showing that several lines (e.g. Treherbert) should’ve started running 231’s (or maybe 756’s?) temporarily for half a year or so until the 398’s were ready to be rolled out. How come this never came into fruition?

Class 231s occasionally run on the Treherbert/Merthyr/Aberdare lines. Looking at RTT, on Wednesday 11 September 231005 was on a diagram running between Cardiff and Treherbert for much of the day, with late evening trips to both Merthyr and Aberdare.

 

[ABB125]

This is from a DB press release (translated into English):

Original link: https://www.oldenburg-wilhelmshaven...bauwerk-in-sengwarden-ist-fertiggestellt.html

It's next to the low frequency radio transmitter the German Navy uses to broadcast messages to its submarines

Thanks both

 

[800001]

The current state of play is that the 231s are on Rhymney-Barry/Bridgend services. 756s have yet to run in passenger service but may yet appear on the Treherbert/Aberdare/Merthyr services before the end of the year - we're waiting on driver training. 398s are delayed with wheelset issues (and Taff's Well Depot for the 398s still isn't finished).

One more thing: driver training runs with 756s show in RealTimeTrains on the Aberdare branch on most weekdays. There are two runs per day - out from Canton at around 0646 and back by 1030, and another one in the afternoon, leaving Canton at 1346 and back by 1730. Looks like they ran most days this week just gone, and there's one out today. So driver training is definitely progressing.

Do you know what the wheel set issues are?

 

[BillStampy]

I’m massively out of date with the latest info, but last I recall early this year/late last year the official documentation was showing that several lines (e.g. Treherbert) should’ve started running 231’s (or maybe 756’s?) temporarily for half a year or so until the 398’s were ready to be rolled out. How come this never came into fruition?

Pretty much all Valley line crews (excluding Bridgend and the Bay) are trained with 231s, so they can run on any of those routes at any time, they just don't have booked workings to do so, some do swap on though.

 

[MikePJ]

Do you know what the wheel set issues are?

Sorry, no: just got it from the 398 thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ylink-tram-trains.229459/page-15#post-6929187

 

[AdamWW]

It's next to the low frequency radio transmitter the German Navy uses to broadcast messages to its submarines

So shielding the railway makes sense there - not very useful trying to shield a transmitter.
But if you're protecting sensitive equipment, I'd have thought shielding the equipment rather than the railway would be more sensible.

2 - Line speed improvements on the Coryton branch.
A blockade of the Coryton branch from 27th October - 2nd November will result in changes in line speed allowing for 45mph and 50mph running on the branch. This will include "head of train" speed restrictions around two footpath crossings, where the driver will be allowed to return to line speed as soon as the front of the train has passed over the crossing.

It looks as if there isn't currently a speed restriction over the crossings, so it would be interesting to know what's triggered the introduction of speed restrictions.

Maybe I don't understand how to read these diagrams because it looks to me as if the speed is only being increased over less than half the branch, but the description says "Increases to the permissible speed for passenger trains throughout the Coryton branch."

Edited to add: I'm also curious how there can be poor adhesion on a single track line in one direction only.

 

[louis97]

It looks as if there isn't currently a speed restriction over the crossings, so it would be interesting to know what's triggered the introduction of speed restrictions.

I think there is currently a Temporary Speed Restriction over at least one of them (Ty Glas I think), I guess this just formalises this.

Maybe I don't understand how to read these diagrams because it looks to me as if the speed is only being increased over less than half the branch, but the description says "Increases to the permissible speed for passenger trains throughout the Coryton branch."

You have read them correctly, suspect whoever wrote the description just saw changes affecting the whole branch.

I'm also curious how there can be poor adhesion on a single track line in one direction only.

If it is only in one direction, likely the gradient having an impact.

 

[stuu]

So shielding the railway makes sense there - not very useful trying to shield a transmitter.
But if you're protecting sensitive equipment, I'd have thought shielding the equipment rather than the railway would be more sensible.

Quite possibly, but the thing that was there first should not be affected by future developments, so the choice is paying to shield something, or using the batteries which the trains already have. A no-brainer really

 

[AdamWW]

I think there is currently a Temporary Speed Restriction over at least one of them (Ty Glas I think), I guess this just formalises this.

I don't believe there is at the other crossing (which couldn't really have better sight lines, unlike Ty Glas).

 

[CapitalStar378]

Work has yet to start on extending the platform at Ty Glas station, has this been quietly scrapped like the new platform at Penarth or is it delayed?

 

[positron]

Work has yet to start on extending the platform at Ty Glas station, has this been quietly scrapped like the new platform at Penarth or is it delayed?

The new platform at Penarth hasn't been scrapped either. It's just not happening for a while.

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It looks like the Cardiff cross rail consultation is live on the site (I didn't think it was planned till tomorrow?)

 

[AdamWW]

The new platform at Penarth hasn't been scrapped either. It's just not happening for a while.

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Have your say on the Cardiff Crossrail project. Cardiff Council and Transport for Wales (TfW) are working together to deliver a new tramway from Cardiff Central to Cardiff Bay, the first phase of Cardiff Crossrail. It’ll enhance connectivity between the city centre and

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It looks like the Cardiff cross rail consultation is live on the site (I didn't think it was planned till tomorrow?)

Ty Glas will I think need ADSO if they don't extend the platforms before the 756s start running. As shown in the diagrams a few posts back it's only a few metres longer than a double 153.

 

[John R]

I have to say, I expect the highway changes proposed will result in a lot of feedback, with a big reduction in capacity, and reduced options for those travelling from north of the main line towards Penarth Road.

 

[mrmartin]

I have to say, I expect the highway changes proposed will result in a lot of feedback, with a big reduction in capacity, and reduced options for those travelling from north of the main line towards Penarth Road.

View attachment 165553

Some parts of it should be ok because currently it takes forever with about 4 traffic lights that are slow because of the number of phases. I suspect with fewer conflicts there can be less phases and similar/more capacity overall.

However the big problem I can potentially see is that bute street closure as it may cause problems with John Lewis car park exits? That is already a nightmare at the moment and it would seem that all that traffic going south would have to go via customhouse street/penarth road (which is currently a bus lane - are the proposing to allow all cars on it again?).

Edit: actually read the doc and they are proposing that all traffic goes down bute terrace. Hmm. Not sure how well this will work but maybe with reduced phases the traffic could flow better on to central link?

I suspect the urban relam will be much improved with this new system though, callaghan square never really worked as is as a giant roundabout.