Surfers call on GWR to review board-on-trains ban

[BayPaul]

If Newquay's tourism is so dependent on surfers then there's enough of them to support rental of different types and sizes. They could even reserve them in advance, nobody is getting on a train with a surfboard on a whim. Or are they? Who are all these people who live in London and own surfboards? Why? Did they win them on Bullseye?

There are many rental shops in Newquay. More ameteur surfers certainly use them. Keener surfers often have have boards worth thousands of pounds specially customised for themselves, when they are particularly keen surfers, just like people do in other sports. I suspect that a surprisingly small percentage of them won them on bullseye.

It normally annoys me when people talk about customising a train for a very specific flow, but I think this is a missed one - a loss of say 8 seats (or half the galley) wouldn't be a massive deal considering how much bigger they are than HSTs, and would have been useful not just for surfboards, but also bikes, luggage etc. There is a lot of holiday traffic on this line, and the huge posters up in Reading (I assume also in Paddington) saying not to bring a surfboard do rather jar against the '5 go to the seaside' advertising

 

[fgwrich]

I read somewhere recently that GWR gave up transporting them after the 802s where introduced. They now go by road.

Along with a business renowned for producing some very high quality and specialist cakes (once featured on Channel 4). The ride of the HST favoured over the harshness of the new stock - a lot of their designs are quite fragile.

 

[DB]

Having a van area is not incompatible with being a DMU. All the first generation ones did, and so do Class 156s and indeed Voyagers.

That is true, although Voyagers don't really have a van area, unless you count the ex-shop on the XC ones, which doesn't have the flexibility o a proper van as it's basically large shelves plus a bike rack.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That is true, although Voyagers don't really have a van area, unless you count the ex-shop on the XC ones, which doesn't have the flexibility o a proper van as it's basically large shelves plus a bike rack.

The bike area/former bike area at the end of coach A is about the same size as a Class 156 van area.

 

[DB]

The bike area/former bike area at the end of coach A is about the same size as a Class 156 van area.

The area n a 156 is barely a van either - unlike the first-geration DMUs, which had a larger space.

 

[dk1]

The bike area/former bike area at the end of coach A is about the same size as a Class 156 van area.

Does catering need that area though?

 

[DB]

Does catering need that area though?

yes, it's where the trolley goes. Doesn't the guard use it as well?

 

[221129]

The bike area/former bike area at the end of coach A is about the same size as a Class 156 van area.

On a very small minority of Voyagers maybe.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On a very small minority of Voyagers maybe.

On all of them, they are all the same.

 

[dk1]

yes, it's where the trolley goes. Doesn't the guard use it as well?

Definitely no room for surfboards here.

 

[221129]

yes, it's where the trolley goes. Doesn't the guard use it as well?

Guard uses coach A and the trolley lives in Coach F

On all of them, they are all the same.

No they really aren't.

 

[Meerkat]

It normally annoys me when people talk about customising a train for a very specific flow, but I think this is a missed one - a loss of say 8 seats (or half the galley) wouldn't be a massive deal considering how much bigger they are than HSTs, and would have been useful not just for surfboards, but also bikes, luggage etc. There is a lot of holiday traffic on this line, and the huge posters up in Reading (I assume also in Paddington) saying not to bring a surfboard do rather jar against the '5 go to the seaside' advertising

How many days a year are people wanting to take surfboards on trains? And are those days also the days when the trains are rammed - would you be happy to find out you were standing because your (expensive) seat space was being used to carry someone’s surfboard for free?
Not convinced anyone tempted to go to the seaside by a railway poster will even surf, let alone own a surfboard.

 

[fgwrich]

How many days a year are people wanting to take surfboards on trains? And are those days also the days when the trains are rammed - would you be happy to find out you were standing because your (expensive) seat space was being used to carry someone’s surfboard for free?
Not convinced anyone tempted to go to the seaside by a railway poster will even surf, let alone own a surfboard.

Well I have a surfboard, and thankfully SWR has the space to take it. The wider issue here that needs to be addressed is not so much around surfboards, but the particularly piss poor luggage space on this new fleet. A lot of posters I note seem to highlight the summer period being when they believe Surfers would take their surfboards on a train to the West Country - actually, while holiday makers will do this, those who know surfing will actually aim for the Autumn / Winter months when the swells are increased and there's more of a chance to catch a wave. But, not only that, we now have inland surfing lakes - The Wave at Bristol being one of them (and the subject of this article), Scotland is about to get one near Linlithgow, there is one planned in the Midlands. These promote surfing as an all year round activity. In the same vein as cycling etc. The issue with the IETs is that they have been designed with seats in mind, lots and lots of seats, basic catering and more seats. The resulting issue is that you can offer more (expensive or not) seats, but there is no discernible increase in luggage provision to match that. Are you saying that it's fine to have lots of seats, but it's not fine to offer any additional luggage provision to match? I'm sure most surfers, cyclists etc would be happy to pay for a decent fully reservable space that is fully guaranteed to remain free - unlike the hybrid offer on the IET (ever had to be called to an argument between a passenger with lots of luggage, a cyclist who has reserved the space and a TM caught in the middle? I have. Not fun). I still find it bemusing that every IET has a large kitchen which spends the majority of it's time out of use, which could have provided a much bigger and better luggage space - Oddly, a feature the Adelante's were actually good at.

Let's for a moment switch this scenario to that in my photo a few posts back in Scotland. The West Country seems to generate a lot of leisure traffic in the form of holiday makers, cyclists and surfers. Scotland seems to generate similar leisure traffic in the form of Holidaymakers, Golf and Winter sports fans. Shall we tell Golf Fans that they can't take their expensive golfing equipment on LNER services either for the same reasons? Same scenario, different luggage.

And yes, I do agree with @BayPaul - The posters saying you can't bring surfboards etc next to GWRs Five Go To The Beach adverts are somewhat ironic, more so when one of the characters is indeed on a surfboard.

 

[Meerkat]

The trains are full length and are often full. They don’t need to, and shouldn’t , lose seats for outlying demand.
I assume this chap was doing a day trip to the wave thing (how was he getting there from the station??). How many surfers are doing day trips to Newquay? I would guess that those who stay overnight and are keen enough to want to use their own board will be sleeping in vans and not a market for train travel.

 

[43096]

The trains are full length and are often full. They don’t need to, and shouldn’t , lose seats for outlying demand.

You must work for DfT to have that view. If it isn't "Thames Valley Metro" (as the former InterCity service now is), they're not interested.

I've got to the stage where I hope the railway takes a massive fall after the end of Covid - it really needs to learn that treating your customers with utter contempt, as an inconvenience and foisting upon them any old dross in terms of comfort and service is not a sustainable position long term. Clearly that lesson is only going to be learnt the hard way.

 

[fgwrich]

The trains are full length and are often full. They don’t need to, and shouldn’t , lose seats for outlying demand.
I assume this chap was doing a day trip to the wave thing (how was he getting there from the station??). How many surfers are doing day trips to Newquay? I would guess that those who stay overnight and are keen enough to want to use their own board will be sleeping in vans and not a market for train travel.

Outlying demand? I'm talking about luggage space here for everyday demand. Be it passengers travelling to Reading for Heathrow, Paddington for the London Airports / Eurostar etc, Bristol Airport Parkway, Exeter for Exeter Airport etc... How different is a passenger travelling with a large suitcase to one travelling with a surfboard. Clue, the surfboard will be narrower. Yes, they may travel to Newquay and stay overnight, but they may be like me - not driving, they might want to use Public Transport over driving - something we are keen to do, yet seem to be telling passengers who want to travel to book on specific or local services only? Yes, the chap in the article was going to The Wave. There is a bus route running outside Temple Meads which connects with The Wave - whether or not First Bus allows boards on the buses in the area I don't know, but how is that promoting sustainable public transport if your attitude is effectively "Go Away, Our Trains Are Full".

Come to think of it, I've just had a look at my surfboard. You could easily fit 3 if not 4 in the same space provided by an IET Luggage rack. Hardly the super space takers that some people think they are.

You must work for DfT to have that view. If it isn't "Thames Valley Metro" (as the former InterCity service now is), they're not interested.

I've got to the stage where I hope the railway takes a massive fall after the end of Covid - it really needs to learn that treating your customers with utter contempt, as an inconvenience and foisting upon them any old dross in terms of comfort and service is not a sustainable position long term. Clearly that lesson is only going to be learnt the hard way.

Indeed. Something I fear is the only way to bring change. Certain elements on the Railways appear to be stuck in their old ways, with the "We Know Whats Best for You" attitude, and no forward thinking or forward planning.

 

[Meerkat]

Everyday travellers probably don’t want surfboards, bikes, and huge suitcases encouraged onto their crowded trains!

 

[fgwrich]

Everyday travellers probably don’t want surfboards, bikes, and huge suitcases encouraged onto their crowded trains!

Again, who are these everyday travellers? Passengers with briefcases and suits? If passengers don't want any of these items encouraged onto "their trains", what do you suggest GWR should do? Stop running to the tourist bits of the South West? Not advertise connections like RailAir at Reading? Advise passengers not to use GWR Services unless you are an "Everyday Traveller" with no luggage?

I Used to work at Reading. I know what GWR's peak hour services look like. There are a lot of "Everyday Passengers" travelling with all forms of luggage including folding bicycles and these ridiculous briefcase trolley items. Guess what, they all take up space.

And good luck in Festival Season.

 

[delt1c]

Profit before passengers. Remember those crazy days pre privatisation ( and even with the big 4) when nearly all long distance trains includes a BG for ( stupid as it may seem) Baggage.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thinking on, LNER are removing the 4 pairs of "dud seats" by the door pockets (no view and no middle armrest so like 3+2 seating) to fit luggage racks. Perhaps GWR could do this, but fit 2 luggage racks and 2 shelfless surfboard racks?

As for general luggage space the overheads are massive, they take a 120 litre (Army bergen size) rucksack easily, yes I've done it! You'd certainly fit, if you organised it carefully, an airline sized carry-on for most passengers up there.

 

[Ianno87]

Everyday travellers probably don’t want surfboards, bikes, and huge suitcases encouraged onto their crowded trains!

GWR can hardly have billboards advertising "Five go on a Cornwall Adventure" then complain when folks turn up with luggagr for a holiday...

Thinking on, LNER are removing the 4 pairs of "dud seats" by the door pockets (no view and no middle armrest so like 3+2 seating) to fit luggage racks. Perhaps GWR could do this, but fit 2 luggage racks and 2 shelfless surfboard racks?

I noticed last week those seats had fabric covers over them labelled "For luggage use only"

 

[fgwrich]

Thinking on, LNER are removing the 4 pairs of "dud seats" by the door pockets (no view and no middle armrest so like 3+2 seating) to fit luggage racks. Perhaps GWR could do this, but fit 2 luggage racks and 2 shelfless surfboard racks?

As for general luggage space the overheads are massive, they take a 120 litre (Army bergen size) rucksack easily, yes I've done it! You'd certainly fit, if you organised it carefully, an airline sized carry-on for most passengers up there.

Careful, you’ll upset the “Everyday Traveller” by suggesting such things. However, it is what should happen. By following the LNER lead, the multi-use space can then be shifted to being for larger items like Cycles, Surfboards and larger suitcases. All of which would be useful across the GWR Network for those 364 days of the year when they run.

I believe Covid has delayed the LNER plan, but it should still be going ahead soon with those windowless seats removed and the new larger racks installed in their place.

 

[infobleep]

GWR can hardly have billboards advertising "Five go on a Cornwall Adventure" then complain when folks turn up with luggagr for a holiday...



I noticed last week those seats had fabric covers over them labelled "For luggage use only"

They don't need to complain. They can just say no.

However they are encouraging people to do something they don't allow. I asuske inadvertently. Perhaps the people working on the poster didn't think it might encourage those with surfboards to use the services?

 

[mmh]

There are many rental shops in Newquay. More ameteur surfers certainly use them. Keener surfers often have have boards worth thousands of pounds specially customised for themselves, when they are particularly keen surfers, just like people do in other sports. I suspect that a surprisingly small percentage of them won them on bullseye.

Then they should live near somewhere they can use their surfboard or drive. Why do they live in London? If they're on holiday, they can rent one for an hour.

But that's never the way with the sports tourist. As I've said, they claim they're essential to the local economy but contribute nothing. Far better to fill trains with people who'll actually spend when they get there, and not deter them because their train's full of surfboards.

 

[Energy]

Everyday travellers probably don’t want surfboards, bikes, and huge suitcases encouraged onto their crowded trains!

Meanwhile they have the kitchens which take up a very large amount of space while only being used for the few pullman services. And there is one per 5 car so there is often 2 kitchens but only a trolley service.

 

[43096]

Then they should live near somewhere they can use their surfboard or drive. Why do they live in London? If they're on holiday, they can rent one for an hour.

But that's never the way with the sports tourist. As I've said, they claim they're essential to the local economy but contribute nothing. Far better to fill trains with people who'll actually spend when they get there, and not deter them because their train's full of surfboards.

In that case, we should apply the same to cyclists.

The attitude towards potential customers by some on this thread is, frankly, astonishing at a time when the industry is holed below the water line financially.

 

[LOL The Irony]

As for the adverts using surfers, they've forgotten the golden rule of advertise it and they'll come.

Perhaps GWR could do this, but fit 2 luggage racks and 2 shelfless surfboard racks?

Or have 1 of the racks have removable shelves that can be replaced with surfboard/bike racks at the will of the guard.

 

[fgwrich]

Also of note, was how other operators (including British Rail) laid out its luggage spaces. BR had an additional few inches between the first row of seats in a Mk3 and the large luggage rack, to place items like bags or small suitcases under. SWT, when they modified the 159/1s, also moved the seat layout around creating a similar additional place for luggage.

Then they should live near somewhere they can use their surfboard or drive. Why do they live in London? If they're on holiday, they can rent one for an hour.

But that's never the way with the sports tourist. As I've said, they claim they're essential to the local economy but contribute nothing. Far better to fill trains with people who'll actually spend when they get there, and not deter them because their train's full of surfboards.

So in other words, You are saying Tough luck if you have a sporting interest or hobby that you can’t perform close to your house, that’s your fault for not living close to it then?

Using the example in the BBC News article - that man clearly wants to use Public Transport (Greener), at a time when there is less demand for public transport and likely to be lots of capacity, he then uses a bus or taxi (contributing to the local economy) to get him to The Wave, spends money at The Wave (again contributing to the local economy) then repeats the same to travel home again.

Should we apply the same logic to those who do Skiing for example? Or those who’s hobby is in the Arts etc?
I fully agree with @43096 on this one. The attitudes, and logics of some members on here today seem to suggest that the railway should only be exclusively for the commuter, and that anyone with a hobby or interest, or holidaymaker, should drive. I do have to wonder what interests, hobbies and sporting abilities some members of this forum actually have apart from the railways, because to me, it is looking like not a lot else is the answer.

 

[fishquinn]

Then they should live near somewhere they can use their surfboard or drive. Why do they live in London? If they're on holiday, they can rent one for an hour.

But that's never the way with the sports tourist. As I've said, they claim they're essential to the local economy but contribute nothing. Far better to fill trains with people who'll actually spend when they get there, and not deter them because their train's full of surfboards.

Oh god, guess I better get rid of my mountain bike then because I live in the midlands. Same for my heavy duty hiking boots, no need for them down here. The fact is there should in be room for surfboards on a route like that (and indeed there has in the past) and it sounds pretty stupid with the company turning around and saying "look at these amazing new trains, now you guys can do one cause the 40 year old trains they replaced were better equipped and we no longer care about you".

 

[Nick Ashwell]

In that case, we should apply the same to cyclists.

Comparing bikes and surfboards is a bit disingenuous.
Bikes are a mode of transport as well as a sport, surfboards for travel doesn't work.

And that doesn't account for the number of people that own a bike vs a surfboard.

The demand for surfboards isn't going to be anywhere near as high as for bikes and therefore if you have to choose catering to one you choose bikes every single time!

How many people go surfing in the off season compared to cycling in the off season? I think we can all answer what the bigger market is!

I don't believe GWR would make such a decision without knowing what revenues they expect to lose making the decisions.

Given the length of a surfboard it's obvious you can't put them in a normal luggage rack if one were fitted and fitting tall ones doesn't use space effectively enough to be a reasonable decision over a two tier luggage rack.

If you could book them as a cycle I'm all for allowing surfboards but this is going to come down to cost benefit analysis. People use bikes at both ends of a train journey, the same can't be said of a surfboard!