Surfers call on GWR to review board-on-trains ban

[telstarbox]

But lots of weekend cyclists (including me) go cycling for recreation rather than a "utility" journey so what's the difference?

 

[43096]

There's an interesting comment from someone on another forum who knows a lot about the IET fleet:

The 80x fleet easily accommodates surf boards in the cycle/luggage storage area - unfortunately an ill informed colleague placed the 'ban' without thinking to ask those of us who know how the things work...

So it looks rather more like "can't be bothered" from the TOC, rather than anything else.

 

[mmh]

So in other words, You are saying Tough luck if you have a sporting interest or hobby that you can’t perform close to your house, that’s your fault for not living close to it then?

Fault doesn't come into it, it's just something you can't do close to where you live.

Using the example in the BBC News article - that man clearly wants to use Public Transport (Greener), at a time when there is less demand for public transport and likely to be lots of capacity, he then uses a bus or taxi (contributing to the local economy) to get him to The Wave, spends money at The Wave (again contributing to the local economy) then repeats the same to travel home again.

I've already said my view is the benefit of sports tourists is inflated, but thanks for unwittingly supporting my opinion. Almost without exception, these places are white elephants with no benefit for the locality. In my area we've had loads of this for decades, including fake surfing.

Should we apply the same logic to those who do Skiing for example?

Absolutely. If you can't accept hiring equipment when you arrive, go somewhere else. We should be encouraging people to travel and spend, not reserving space for the wealthy with no intention of spending.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

But lots of weekend cyclists (including me) go cycling for recreation rather than a "utility" journey so what's the difference?

Because a large number of cyclists use bikes to commute, I doubt single person in the UK uses a surfboard to commute!

 

[43096]

Absolutely. If you can't accept hiring equipment when you arrive, go somewhere else. We should be encouraging people to travel and spend, not reserving space for the wealthy with no intention of spending.

Or travel some other way, which is the message from the railway. So not only will they do that with their surfboard, but likely for any other journeys they'd make without it.

It's appalling customer service and an appalling attitude that infects large swathes of the railway.

 

[telstarbox]

But on a Saturday I might ride out to Essex and get a Greater Anglia train back. That's not commuting and in the rush hours you can't bring a bike on board those trains anyway - so what's the difference? There's no reason for GWR not to cater for an established leisure demand and thus keep cars off the M5 and A30.

 

[fgwrich]

Fault doesn't come into it, it's just something you can't do close to where you live.



I've already said my view is the benefit of sports tourists is inflated, but thanks for unwittingly supporting my opinion. Almost without exception, these places are white elephants with no benefit for the locality. In my area we've had loads of this for decades, including fake surfing.



Absolutely. If you can't accept hiring equipment when you arrive, go somewhere else. We should be encouraging people to travel and spend, not reserving space for the wealthy with no intention of spending.

Thank you, I needed a laugh tonight. Cleary those who have hobbies and interests on the forum outside of the railways remains rather low then. I would like to know how The Wave, or Surf Snowdonia etc are total white elephants with no benefit to the locality. The same could be said for the Eden Project (which has a popular zip wire) or other tourist attractions too.

I can hire equipment if I want to, bit if the equipment isn't up to scratch then I would not spend. Which then impacts the local economy you seem to be so protective of. As for claiming that "it's just something you can't do close to where you live", indeed, you're right. Which is why I want to use the transport to do such a thing. But clearly I shouldn't have an interest in said activity because I don't live close to it

 

[BayPaul]

Then they should live near somewhere they can use their surfboard or drive. Why do they live in London? If they're on holiday, they can rent one for an hour.

If that's the route you go down then we don't need the railway at all - everyone should just live where they work.

As with many on here, I'm arguing that a small, flexible, ideally pre-bookable space would be very useful. This really isn't niche, and that there is an issue is well demonstrated by LNER winning an argument with DfT on a very similar challenge.

Whilst the 800s are probably mainly full of commuters, the long runs up from the West Country are proper long distance trains, with very few opportunities for daily commuters on them on the runs into London. Obviously it isn't all holiday makers, but the percentage travelling for an overnight stay must be pretty high.

Newquay is actually a pretty decent place to arrive by train and go surfing, the station and beaches are easily accessible from each other. This person with a surfboard could easily live in Plymouth or Exeter and come for the day, they don't need to come all the way from London.

 

[fgwrich]

There's an interesting comment from someone on another forum who knows a lot about the IET fleet:

So it looks rather more like "can't be bothered" from the TOC, rather than anything else.

That doesn't surprise me at all. As I suggested above, GWR Could take the LNER approach (where leisure travel seems to be fine!) and remove the first few seats replacing this with a larger luggage rack. The surfboard and bikes can then share the multi-use space out there. Make this reservable, advertise this feature. Problem solved. Well, problem solved, but the will clearly isn't there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Then they should live near somewhere they can use their surfboard or drive. Why do they live in London? If they're on holiday, they can rent one for an hour.

But that's never the way with the sports tourist. As I've said, they claim they're essential to the local economy but contribute nothing. Far better to fill trains with people who'll actually spend when they get there, and not deter them because their train's full of surfboards.

Don't they go to the pub etc?

There's an interesting comment from someone on another forum who knows a lot about the IET fleet:

So it looks rather more like "can't be bothered" from the TOC, rather than anything else.

So book them on as bikes, problem solved.

 

[mmh]

Oh god, guess I better get rid of my mountain bike then because I live in the midlands. Same for my heavy duty hiking boots, no need for them down here.

That's not a good comparison. You can use your bike in the Midlands, and you're not taking the mickey taking it on the train to the coast. If you were demanding there should be special trains for you to the coast, that could be different.

Comparing bikes and surfboards is a bit disingenuous.
Bikes are a mode of transport as well as a sport, surfboards for travel doesn't work.

Exactly. There's a bit of automatic outrage going on here I think. I bought a double bass rather than a violin but it's not my fault.

But lots of weekend cyclists (including me) go cycling for recreation rather than a "utility" journey so what's the difference?

More than welcome to me. Unfortunately lots think there mere presence is welcome. Not all, but some could do with giving their wallets an airing.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Thinking on, LNER are removing the 4 pairs of "dud seats" by the door pockets (no view and no middle armrest so like 3+2 seating) to fit luggage racks.

Wow, I'd missed that. Excellent news. Hopefully that will give GWR/DfT cover to do the same on their IETs.

 

[fgwrich]

That's not a good comparison. You can use your bike in the Midlands, and you're not taking the mickey taking it on the train to the coast. If you were demanding there should be special trains for you to the coast, that could be different.



Exactly. There's a bit of automatic outrage going on here I think. I bought a double bass rather than a violin but it's not my fault.



More than welcome to me. Unfortunately lots think there mere presence is welcome. Not all, but some could do with giving their wallets an airing.

No automatic outrage going on here, other than that this has exposed how much of a poorly designed train this actually is. No Mickey taking either, for using the train, as it should be used. As a mode of conveyance for person and property. There seems to be a growing opinion that the railways must be used for getting a person to and from work on here, and that leisure travel should be limited. I have taken my surfboard, paddle board, mountain bike and snowboard by rail in the past, and unfortunately for you, will continue to do so. Why, because I can! I don't see why I, as a fare payer, should not be able to bring such items on board when and where possible and where the rules allow.

Besides, I've seen someone move a Palm Tree by SWR Before!

Wow, I'd missed that. Excellent news. Hopefully that will give GWR/DfT cover to do the same on their IETs.

LNER's new Azuma trains won't get extra luggage space till after Christmas to ease crush

Christmas rail passengers face a potential luggage crush on LNER’s new Edinburgh-London trains because extra space will not be added until next year.

www.scotsman.com

 

[Class 170101]

The DfT regard the summer service in the west as a bit of a nuisance. I had to answer a load of idiotic questions during the DA process which indicated some there really didn't want to pay for the existing additional summer trains, let alone anything else.

As to the 802 units, they had to be identical inside to the 800 units for the DfT to approve them. I would have hoped that GWR would have roaded the surfboards to Newquay from stations from Bristol (for a small fee) but banning them became the easier option.

Sounds like there is still no understanding in government circles of seasonal demand!

DfT needs to re-think its response I would suggest moving lots of people at peaks times is no longer guaranteed now never mind post COVID.

With Hitachi units not only would it be prohibitively expensive but it would be an operational nightmare. Not worth it for a few seasonal surfers who are probably travelling on heavily discounted tickets.

I read somewhere recently that GWR gave up transporting them after the 802s where introduced. They now go by road.

Travelling on discounted tickets they have been but now going by road they are paying the railway nothing at all. The services are still running at the moment but it seems not for much longer if they don't reflect the new reality.

If the focus of railways post-Covid is away from commuting towards more leisure travel, then carriage of passengers' luggage, especially large items like skateboards, must take a higher priority in the design of new trains, and older trains may need internal alterations. There is also the opportunity to carry small items of freight (whether shellfish, medical samples or other time-sensitive items) on passenger trains provided space is designed in at the outset. We used to do this before the railways became so fragmented. Unfortunately the present culture, no doubt coming from DfT, is focussed on maximising the number of seats above all other considerations.

Maximising seats may well prove pointless as people don't travel all at once anymore for work and whether that comes back well who knows.

 

[supervc-10]

A tall luggage rack with tip up/removable shelves could definitely work. Designate certain services as 'surfboard friendly' when pre-booked, and change things back to a regular luggage rack when the train is on other services.

Trying to combine a commuter rail service with a long distance one is where it all falls down really.

 

[dk1]

DfT needs to re-think its response I would suggest moving lots of people at peaks times is no longer guaranteed now never mind post COVID.





Travelling on discounted tickets they have been but now going by road they are paying the railway nothing at all. The services are still running at the moment but it seems not for much longer if they don't reflect the new reality.



Maximising seats may well prove pointless as people don't travel all at once anymore for work and whether that comes back well who knows.m

It will all just continue in the current status quo.

 

[fgwrich]

FYI for those who seem to think Surfboards take up such dramatic amount of space. This is one of my boards, uncovered, in the cycle space of a 159. It was only laying sideways because it was safer (and thinner). It is the same length as a bike, and would still easily allow other items of luggage to be stored in there. I was travelling back just after 7 pm from Waterloo to where I live in Hampshire. Not one complaint, not one space for a bike or suitcase blocked.
So the outrage seems to be from those who wouldn’t want the status quo of a commuter railway disrupted.

 

[dk1]

FYI for those who seem to think Surfboards take up such dramatic amount of space. This is one of my boards, uncovered, in the cycle space of a 159. It was only laying sideways because it was safer (and thinner). It is the same length as a bike, and would still easily allow other items of luggage to be stored in there. I was travelling back just after 7 pm from Waterloo to where I live in Hampshire. Not one complaint, not one space for a bike or suitcase blocked.
So the outrage seems to be from those who wouldn’t want the status quo of a commuter railway disrupted.

To be fair GWR used to have to confine an entire coach to the things laid across the top of all seats in that vehicl.

 

[Meerkat]

FYI for those who seem to think Surfboards take up such dramatic amount of space. This is one of my boards, uncovered, in the cycle space of a 159. It was only laying sideways because it was safer (and thinner). It is the same length as a bike, and would still easily allow other items of luggage to be stored in there. I was travelling back just after 7 pm from Waterloo to where I live in Hampshire. Not one complaint, not one space for a bike or suitcase blocked.
So the outrage seems to be from those who wouldn’t want the status quo of a commuter railway disrupted.

You were surfing at Waterloo?!
how many people did you wallop with it?

 

[py_megapixel]

Fault doesn't come into it, it's just something you can't do close to where you live.

So why should people be not permitted to travel on the railways to do it somewhere not close to where they live?

If you can't accept hiring equipment when you arrive, go somewhere else. We should be encouraging people to travel and spend, not reserving space for the wealthy with no intention of spending.

This is an utterly daft statement, and demonstrates a fundemental misunderstanding of the issue. It's not a choice between hiring equipment and bringing one's own equipment - it's a choice between bringing one's own equipment and not coming at all.

Let's say I want to go cycling somewhere a long way from home. If I hire a bike, I have to pay to duplicate equipment I already own. The hire bike is going to feel different to ride; it won't come with the saddle height adjusted correctly for me, it might have problems which I'm not aware of, and it will be inconvenient to use as well because it won't have the mounts for my panniers, lights or other equipment. Also, if the station happens not to have a cycle hire facility - which most don't - I can't get off the train and be straight on my way; I must find a cycle hire company and walk to it, and do the reverse at the other end. For something like a weekend break these losses of time can really add up.

So the choices are:

a) I bring my own bike. I stay in a local B&B or hotel, I eat in local cafes and restaurants, I visit local businesses.

b) I plan to hire a bike. However, the hassle is such that I decide to abandon plans to visit this place at all.

Which do you think is going to be better for the local economy?

 

[fgwrich]

To be fair GWR used to have to confine an entire coach to the things laid across the top of all seats in that vehicl.

I would say that was a mixture - surfboards and a lot of holiday luggage. For some reason, FGW didn't seem to use the van space as much as other HST operators, preferring to add in an extra coach (when they had the flexibility!)

You were surfing at Waterloo?!
how many people did you wallop with it?

Just for you, a grand total of 0. I actually purchased the board in North London, took it on a 317 (ex Stansted unit, stood upright in the luggage rack), On the Overground, again stood perfectly fine upwards and walked. No one was walloped, or caught by it at all. Unlike those commuters with those wheely cases who insist on running everywhere at 100mph. A bike was even placed next to it between Clapham and Woking, again no issues at all.

 

[Meerkat]

I would say that was a mixture - surfboards and a lot of holiday luggage. For some reason, FGW didn't seem to use the van space as much as other HST operators, preferring to add in an extra coach (when they had the flexibility!)



Just for you, a grand total of 0. I actually purchased the board in North London, took it on a 317 (ex Stansted unit, stood upright in the luggage rack), On the Overground, again stood perfectly fine upwards and walked. No one was walloped, or caught by it at all. Unlike those commuters with those wheely cases who insist on running everywhere at 100mph. A bike was even placed next to it between Clapham and Woking, again no issues at all.

The reason I asked was how much hassle is caused by people with big bags, massive rucksacks and bikes on busy stations and trains.

 

[fgwrich]

The reason I asked was how much hassle is caused by people with big bags, massive rucksacks and bikes on busy stations and trains.

The thing with Surfboards is, they can be carried in 2 ways. Upright (and most surfboard bags allow you to do this) or sideways. I'll agree, carrying them sideways in a station environment is not appropriate, but it's no more of an annoyance than a bike with the peddles sticking out really. They really aren't as space hungry as they've been made out to be in this sorry saga - hence why I suggested earlier than you could easily slot 3 or 4 in the space of an IET luggage rack if carried upright.

 

[LOL The Irony]

So the outrage seems to be from those who wouldn’t want the status quo of a commuter railway disrupted.

Exactly. Another thing is the railways may have to rely on the leisure traveler in the years to come, so these people who are trying to deter the leisure traveler may be writing their own obituary.

 

[BayPaul]

Trying to combine a commuter rail service with a long distance one is where it all falls down really.

But unlike most railway services in the UK the Paddington - Penzance service really isn't. Apart from Reading, which has a large choice of services (not the place for that argument) it's first stop Taunton, so all the passengers from London are long distance. Of course there are local flows as well but they are less likely to be on the same train as the large leisure flows. Folding luggage storage, or even tip up seats for when the train is doing a commuter run would seem simple and ideal.

To be fair GWR used to have to confine an entire coach to the things laid across the top of all seats in that vehicl.

Why couldn't they still do this - run one surfer's special direct to Newquay with a carriage used just for surfboards. Clearly the demand is there.

 

[6Gman]

To be fair I suppose they could earmark say 5 rows of seats on top of which they could be stacked with some sort of restraint, in summer only.

If I couldn't get a seat, and saw seats closed off for people's surfboards I'd be rather peeved.

The railway these days aren't designed for ungainly luggage.

 

[irish_rail]

Too be fair the lack of provision for bikes will prove a far bigger problem going forward than surf boards. With the government trying to insist we all need to get fit etc and cycling seemingly increasing hugely in popularity, 4 bike spaces per train really isnt going to cut it for the next 30 years...
Half the problem is the fact the south west services are seen by DFT as an inconvenience , indeed the fact we have been foisted with the pairs of 5 car sets. Any modification (for example like LNER) will be more difficult as it will need to be done on all the 5 car trains and thus mean losing double the number of seats compared with if 9 car trains where used on the route.

 

[6Gman]

If I couldn't get a seat, and saw seats closed off for people's surfboards I'd be rather peeved.

The railway these days aren't designed for ungainly luggage.

(I used to be able to take my motorbike by train. Fully understand why it's no longer an option.)

 

[dk1]

Too be fair the lack of provision for bikes will prove a far bigger problem going forward than surf boards. With the government trying to insist we all need to get fit etc and cycling seemingly increasing hugely in popularity, 4 bike spaces per train really isnt going to cut it for the next 30 years...
Half the problem is the fact the south west services are seen by DFT as an inconvenience , indeed the fact we have been foisted with the pairs of 5 car sets. Any modification (for example like LNER) will be more difficult as it will need to be done on all the 5 car trains and thus mean losing double the number of seats compared with if 9 car trains where used on the route.

Why don't those insisting on the last mile by bike just purchase a Brompton or similar folding cycle? Most issues would then be resolved overnight.

 

[Ianno87]

Too be fair the lack of provision for bikes will prove a far bigger problem going forward than surf boards. With the government trying to insist we all need to get fit etc and cycling seemingly increasing hugely in popularity, 4 bike spaces per train really isnt going to cut it for the next 30 years...
Half the problem is the fact the south west services are seen by DFT as an inconvenience , indeed the fact we have been foisted with the pairs of 5 car sets. Any modification (for example like LNER) will be more difficult as it will need to be done on all the 5 car trains and thus mean losing double the number of seats compared with if 9 car trains where used on the route.

????

2 x modded 5 car sets (i.e. 10 cars) would still probably have more seats left than a modded 9 car ser...