TPE services allocated for Double units

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Jamesrob637

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A Hull diagram is showing 3-car all day on Journey Check for tomorrow! Advance planning at its finest! What's the betting TP do actually put a 6-car on after all?!
 
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tpjm

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A Hull diagram is showing 3-car all day on Journey Check for tomorrow! Advance planning at its finest! What's the betting TP do actually put a 6-car on after all?!
A good chance that this is to do with the fatality on the south route earlier today (Monday). Most likely messed up the unit diagrams so a spare is being pinched off the Hull circuit to plug a gap.
 

Jamesrob637

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A good chance that this is to do with the fatality on the south route earlier today (Monday). Most likely messed up the unit diagrams so a spare is being pinched off the Hull circuit to plug a gap.

Pleased to report that as of lunchtime the diagram is back up to 6-car so my prediction partially rang true.

Condolences to those affected by the tragic loss yesterday. Still occurs far too often on the railways.
 

Jamesrob637

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11:07 Redcar to Manchester seems to have disgraced itself at Dewsbury - same reason as the one a few days ago a few posts above?
 

Jamesrob637

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Refreshing Journey Check periodically the past two weeks, it seems like short-forms have been occasional but certainly could have been worse.

I am personally booked on the 09:11 Manchester to Sheffield next Monday and the 22:11 return. I believe that the 22:11 might lose a unit at Cleethorpes but shouldn't be an issue on a Monday night (probably wouldn't justify a double on a Monday night even under normal circumstances).
 

Killingworth

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Refreshing Journey Check periodically the past two weeks, it seems like short-forms have been occasional but certainly could have been worse.

I am personally booked on the 09:11 Manchester to Sheffield next Monday and the 22:11 return. I believe that the 22:11 might lose a unit at Cleethorpes but shouldn't be an issue on a Monday night (probably wouldn't justify a double on a Monday night even under normal circumstances).

I caught the Cleethorpes - Piccadilly service at Dore this morrning, 6 coaches at 8.14 that picked up 2. It was very easy to count the 17 of us who alighted in Manchester. A 153 would probably have sufficed even with distancing.

At this rate it's going to be a long time before we really need double units. One has to wonder how much longer they'll be sent out.
 

Jamesrob637

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I caught the Cleethorpes - Piccadilly service at Dore this morrning, 6 coaches at 8.14 that picked up 2. It was very easy to count the 17 of us who alighted in Manchester. A 153 would probably have sufficed even with distancing.

At this rate it's going to be a long time before we really need double units. One has to wonder how much longer they'll be sent out.

That one only went double relatively recently. Think it was only last year (but produced a single pre-COVID often enough although it got better this year, or what we had of it prior to lockdown!)

Incidentally that'll be my 09:11 outbound Monday so had better be on time into Manchester then :D I see it was more or less on time today.
 

Killingworth

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That one only went double relatively recently. Think it was only last year (but produced a single pre-COVID often enough although it got better this year, or what we had of it prior to lockdown!)

Incidentally that'll be my 09:11 outbound Monday so had better be on time into Manchester then :D I see it was more or less on time today.

My service was on time into Piccadilly, but the return got held up behind a Northern stopper that had to wait at Dore for a delayed EMR from St Pancras!

While waiting for my 8.14 at Dore I saw the 8.05 towards Cleethorpes. One got off and one got on a 6 coach train that may have had as few as 5 aboard, although one or two others may have beeen hiding!
 

hibtastic

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Sorry if I’ve missed this in all that’s gone on recently but are TPE keeping the extra 185s. Most Huddersfield and Hull services ex Piccadilly seem to be 6-car at the moment.
 

Killingworth

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Sorry if I’ve missed this in all that’s gone on recently but are TPE keeping the extra 185s. Most Huddersfield and Hull services ex Piccadilly seem to be 6-car at the moment.

Certainly are running most trains as 6 car on South Pennine. How long that can be justified remains to be seen in the autumn after schools and universities have gone back, assuming they have. Current loadings are generally very low so only distancing can possibly justify 6 cars at present.

Working from home practices seem to be working well for very many. Continuing improvements are making that an even more attractive option so many will not be returning to trains.
 

Jamesrob637

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20:26 Cleethorpes to Piccadilly is only booked 3-car however that doesn't pose an issue so late in the day.
 

Jamesrob637

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According to Journey Check the 12:07 Redcar to Manchester is 6-car instead of 3.

This is surely an error, since all Redcar are booked 6-car right now, especially during daylight hours. Maybe the very last one of the day is 3, as per the Cleethorpes.
 

Jamesrob637

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So after December:

All Redcars remain booked 6-car
All South TPE remain booked 6-car with the exception of the always very lightly-loaded 20:26 Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport which poses no problem for social distancing
All Hulls remain booked 6-car
Most if not all of the Manchester to Huddersfield stoppers remain booked 6-car
A couple of Scarboroughs which aren't operated by the new trains remain booked 6-car
Leeds to Huddersfield locals can't be booked 6-car because of the short bay platform at Huddersfield

Please feel free to correct me on any of the above.
 

BHXDMT

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So after December:

All Redcars remain booked 6-car
All South TPE remain booked 6-car with the exception of the always very lightly-loaded 20:26 Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport which poses no problem for social distancing
All Hulls remain booked 6-car
Most if not all of the Manchester to Huddersfield stoppers remain booked 6-car
A couple of Scarboroughs which aren't operated by the new trains remain booked 6-car
Leeds to Huddersfield locals can't be booked 6-car because of the short bay platform at Huddersfield

Please feel free to correct me on any of the above.

The Manchester to Huddersfield stopper (daytime, Mon-Sat) is reverting to 3 car. The evening and Sunday stops are being inserted into Hull services so may be 6 car.

The wording for Redcar, South TPE and Hull services is "most, or majority" of services will be 6 car, so there will still be a few 3 car services on those routes.

Of course, with pax numbers declining again who knows if the December timetable will come to fruition as it has been planned.
 

Killingworth

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The Manchester to Huddersfield stopper (daytime, Mon-Sat) is reverting to 3 car. The evening and Sunday stops are being inserted into Hull services so may be 6 car.

The wording for Redcar, South TPE and Hull services is "most, or majority" of services will be 6 car, so there will still be a few 3 car services on those routes.

Of course, with pax numbers declining again who knows if the December timetable will come to fruition as it has been planned.

As one who experienced overcrowded peak hour TPE South Pennine 3 car services, and been very pleased that in early March we'd finally got 6 on almost all trains, I can see it will soon make inevitable commercial sense to drop back to 3. The numbers aren't coming back any time soon, if ever.
 

RHolmes

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So after December:

All Redcars remain booked 6-car
All South TPE remain booked 6-car with the exception of the always very lightly-loaded 20:26 Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport which poses no problem for social distancing
All Hulls remain booked 6-car
Most if not all of the Manchester to Huddersfield stoppers remain booked 6-car
A couple of Scarboroughs which aren't operated by the new trains remain booked 6-car
Leeds to Huddersfield locals can't be booked 6-car because of the short bay platform at Huddersfield

Please feel free to correct me on any of the above.


Stopper routes are ALL 3 car

Redcar and South route will see some 3 car service but mostly 6 car.

That’s IF the new timetable actually comes into place with the latest lockdown announcement. There is a plan B timetable with reduced services.
 

Jamesrob637

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Stopper routes are ALL 3 car

Redcar and South route will see some 3 car service but mostly 6 car.

That’s IF the new timetable actually comes into place with the latest lockdown announcement. There is a plan B timetable with reduced services.

A Manchester to Huddersfield was saying 3-car instead of 6 all day on Journey Check yesterday. A guess told me that it was the same (pair) shuttling back and forth. Was that an error?
 

RHolmes

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A Manchester to Huddersfield was saying 3-car instead of 6 all day on Journey Check yesterday. A guess told me that it was the same (pair) shuttling back and forth. Was that an error?

Yesterday one was indeed a 3 car all day. The route requires two trains that shuttle back and forth all day

With the last two Huddersfield stoppers, one returns to Ardwick empty (via Piccadilly to drop off the conductor) whilst the other travels to Crofton depot with a Sheffield driver for route diversion knowledge (Huddersfield to Sheffield via Mirfield).
 

tpjm

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A Manchester to Huddersfield was saying 3-car instead of 6 all day on Journey Check yesterday. A guess told me that it was the same (pair) shuttling back and forth. Was that an error?
There’s a schedule clash with Northern on a Sunday which means that only half of Platform 4 is available so the stopper has to be reduced to 3 vice 6.

It remains to be seen what will happen in December. Reductions of the stoppers in the evening and returning to 3 coaches was on the basis of significant enhancement to the base timetable. If this doesn’t happen, I would be surprised if the current TT doesn’t just carry on with minimal tweaks.
 

Jamesrob637

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There’s a schedule clash with Northern on a Sunday which means that only half of Platform 4 is available so the stopper has to be reduced to 3 vice 6.

It remains to be seen what will happen in December. Reductions of the stoppers in the evening and returning to 3 coaches was on the basis of significant enhancement to the base timetable. If this doesn’t happen, I would be surprised if the current TT doesn’t just carry on with minimal tweaks.

Ah thanks for the Sunday clarification but I was actually referring to a Saturday diagram!
 

gledhill56

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There’s a schedule clash with Northern on a Sunday which means that only half of Platform 4 is available so the stopper has to be reduced to 3 vice 6.

It remains to be seen what will happen in December. Reductions of the stoppers in the evening and returning to 3 coaches was on the basis of significant enhancement to the base timetable. If this doesn’t happen, I would be surprised if the current TT doesn’t just carry on with minimal tweaks.
Weren’t the Leeds-Huddersfield stoppers doing the Marsden ECS shuffle to get around that problem?
 

RHolmes

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There’s a schedule clash with Northern on a Sunday which means that only half of Platform 4 is available so the stopper has to be reduced to 3 vice 6.

It remains to be seen what will happen in December. Reductions of the stoppers in the evening and returning to 3 coaches was on the basis of significant enhancement to the base timetable. If this doesn’t happen, I would be surprised if the current TT doesn’t just carry on with minimal tweaks.

The Hull services are meant to be replacing the Manchester stopper in December on Sunday’s so this won’t be an issue as we’ll be using platforms 8 and 1.

Even if there is a reduction in the new timetable with the recent lockdown announcement, I can still see this happening as it reduces the number of trains and traincrew required whilst not affecting the amount of passenger services for the intermediate station and the Hull service has large amounts of layover either end of the service
 

gledhill56

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There was an issue to do with the timings of the ECS and how long train crew had to dispose of a unit which lead to that plan being binned if I remember correctly.
Thought there was a logical reason for those ECS moves disappearing after the last timetable change. Thank you.
 

tpjm

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Weren’t the Leeds-Huddersfield stoppers doing the Marsden ECS shuffle to get around that problem?
There was an issue to do with the timings of the ECS and how long train crew had to dispose of a unit which lead to that plan being binned if I remember correctly.
The Marsden ECS shuffle was mandated by the LDS-HUD stopper being too long for Platform 6. Once you cut it down to 3, there’s no impact M-Sa whether the LDS-HUD stopper uses Platform 6 or runs to Marsden, but on a Sunday the Northern to Bradford is extended to Leeds. This requires different platform occupancy at HUD and if Platform 6 is not available it must use Platform 4a, resulting in a clash with the MAN-HUD stopper if it is 6 car.

The Hull services are meant to be replacing the Manchester stopper in December on Sunday’s so this won’t be an issue as we’ll be using platforms 8 and 1.

Even if there is a reduction in the new timetable with the recent lockdown announcement, I can still see this happening as it reduces the number of trains and traincrew required whilst not affecting the amount of passenger services for the intermediate station and the Hull service has large amounts of layover either end of the service
It was planned as evenings and Sundays. There’s adequate planning capacity to make all the Hull services into a stopper. The challenge to the plan will come from the DfT/RNP who will need to ratify it first. The premise around removing the stoppers was to provide additional capacity (resource) to run more express services at the right times, rather than wasting resources running too many empty trains into the night. I somehow doubt the DfT will accept a further reduction in the current overall service level - redistribution yes. Remember we are talking about post-December, until next May potentially.
 

Jamesrob637

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08:07 Redcar to Manchester Airport is only booked a single, however it's a double upon return from the airport.
 

_toommm_

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08:07 Redcar to Manchester Airport is only booked a single, however it's a double upon return from the airport.

Woth the other unit coming off a Cleethorpes services that comes ECS from Piccadilly. But this leaves a gap of an hour on South TPE.
 

Jamesrob637

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Looks like most South TPE are only 3-car today for the eastern section Doncaster to Cleethorpes.
 

Watershed

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Looks like most South TPE are only 3-car today for the eastern section Doncaster to Cleethorpes.
Just one 3-car diagram during the day, and that one's booked a double. All 6 others (hourly frequency has now resumed) are doubles as booked.
 
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