UK face coverings discussion

[birchesgreen]

I wish I'd heard that, it would of made my day. The bloke got what he deserved, it was none of his business.

I know, it was fantastic.

 

[bramling]

On the other hand I went to pay for fuel the other day and just forgot my mask. Slipped my mind. The cashier said nothing, the other people in the shop said nothing (it was only when I saw the other shoppers I realised I'd forgotten to wear a covering)

In my experience (which I’d again add a caveat of being mainly in the London and SE area) filling stations have very low compliance. Indeed I’d say it’s been well under 50% when I’ve been.

Perhaps they need a priority deployment of Covid marshals?

 

[Huntergreed]

You can always tell what a conductor thinks of the face covering law by listening to their announcements. If they are very emphatic (You MUST wear it, you will get fined, keep us safe) then it’s clear they think they work well, if they give a polite reminder it’s clear they agree with the law but don’t necessarily think they work perfectly. If they disagree with them, you’ll often/normally not hear them mentioned, just a general observation.

 

[Yew]

I think it’s becoming increasingly obvious that masks have no effect on reducing the spread of the virus, but they do have an effect on terrified Karen’s hiding in their homes who’re scared they will die without one. That’s why this whole issue is decisive, and I (personally) think it almost visually highlights the ones who fall for government scare tactics (the vocal, aggressive pro-maskers) and the logical ones who want evidence for why this uncomfortable law is being imposed on them (like most of us on here). I’m absolutely sick of the government appeasing the Karen’s and I think it’s time they started to be reasonable about this. We have absolutely no way out of this without a vaccine (which, thankfully, at the moment looks like it will happen soon enough), but in future we cannot base a pandemic strategy around the assumption that we will 100% get a vaccine. What I think I’m most disappointed in is how low our government has stooped. Terrifying people into their homes, telling youngsters “don’t kill your granny”, these things have no place in modern day society, and I would support a large scale enquiry into their whole handling of this mess (which they have caused, to a considerable extent)

Living in Scotland, I’m very angry at Sturgeon for the way she has handled this and whilst I can’t fault her on her clarity or appearances (a daily briefing every day since lockdown started for 6 months, that’s good leadership), I profoundly disagree with the approach she is taking, especiallt masking up schoolchildren and playing political games with Boris to support her independence campaign.

I had an interesting discussion today. Apparently it is unreasonable to insist on a randomised control trial, as it would be unethical (people, are dying, don't you know?). However when I point out that since masks have been introduced, we've not seen the cases reduce, their reply is "how can we tell with everything else going on. (The answer to which is to have a randomised control trial). The circular logic astounds me!

 

[jumble]

Just had my first mask related encounter.

Sat on the bus home (Go North East). Top deck is completely empty and I'm sat at the front.

Pulled my mask down a couple of times to reach into my bag and eat some pretzels. Pushed it up in between.

Driver stops the bus, comes storming up the stairs and says if I pull down my mask again I'll be thrown off.

I can't say I expected that. No rules posted about eating and drinking either. Otherwise I'm always masked up, so I was a little taken aback by the borderline aggressive attitude.

And yet in TFL land bus drivers and London Underground staff take no interest what ever in whether one is wearing a mask or not

 

[trainophile]

It's still not second nature to me to put one on every time I step into a shop or other enclosed space (presumably covered shopping arcades are included even if not in an actual shop?). I don't mind being politely reminded, but I would be very upset if someone "had a go" at me. Most of us have a dozen other things on our minds and sticking a bit of cloth over our faces tends to get overlooked on occasions.

As for wearing them every time we leave home, that sounds like the quickest way to torpedo what's left of the economy... only online shopping will survive.

 

[Ploughman]

With the Covid situation as it is now how stupid is it to operate a coach tour for a Hen Party, or any other type of party?

Yesterday I was parked up in the centre of a Cumbrian town, when a large coach pulls up a few metres away.
Big posters proclaimed "North East Party Bus" Newcastle area phone number.
With Disco party music blaring out.
30 inebriated women of a age range between 18 and 60 poured off with Stella cans in hand and absolutely no intention of maintaining any distance whatsoever, other than how many of them could appear in a selfie together.
The 2 males on board looked like a Driver and another who was acting as a shepherd. Talking about Herding Cats.
Not one had any sort of mask.
No consideration for the locals and tourists doing their best to avoid them.
Thankfully none came near me and they were gone after 10 minutes.

 

[trainophile]

All this mask obsession presupposes that the vast majority of other people have the virus, when in fact a minuscule proportion of the general public actually do. I think it would be extreme bad luck to encounter an infectious person at close enough proximity to contract it yourself in general day to day life.

 

[AdamWW]

All this mask obsession presupposes that the vast majority of other people have the virus, when in fact a minuscule proportion of the general public actually do. I think it would be extreme bad luck to encounter an infectious person at close enough proximity to contract it yourself in general day to day life.

The imposition of masks definitely doesn't presuppose the vast majority are infectious. That's not at all how it works.

If masks reduce transmission, then the only way they can work is if people wear them regardless of their chances of being infected, because the infectious ones don't know who they are. (At any rate, those who know or suspect they are infectious shouldn't be out and about with or without masks).

 

[Yew]

The imposition of masks definitely doesn't presuppose the vast majority are infectious. That's not at all how it works.

If masks reduce transmission, then the only way they can work is if people wear them regardless of their chances of being infected, because the infectious ones don't know who they are. (At any rate, those who know or suspect they are infectious shouldn't be out and about with or without masks).

However if we consider the overall prevelence, that number of people who need to wear a mask, to cover the mouth of one person with COVID is remarkably high.

 

[route101]

It's still not second nature to me to put one on every time I step into a shop or other enclosed space (presumably covered shopping arcades are included even if not in an actual shop?). I don't mind being politely reminded, but I would be very upset if someone "had a go" at me. Most of us have a dozen other things on our minds and sticking a bit of cloth over our faces tends to get overlooked on occasions.

As for wearing them every time we leave home, that sounds like the quickest way to torpedo what's left of the economy... only online shopping will survive.

I got into the habit of doing it. Got into a strange habit of taking off upon entering shops etc. Opposite effect

Was away a few days, compliance pretty high.

 

[AdamWW]

However if we consider the overall prevelence, that number of people who need to wear a mask, to cover the mouth of one person with COVID is remarkably high.

It is. And?

Have you ever asked yourself how many people are deterred from trying to hijack or blow up a plane compared to the number of completely innocent people going through airport security?

 

[yorkie]

It is. And?

Have you ever asked yourself how many people are deterred from trying to hijack or blow up a plane compared to the number of completely innocent people going through airport security?

Interesting analogy but a more appropriate analogy would be making people go through security to catch a bus or go to a shop....

The problem with analogies is that people always pick and choose to suit their argument

 

[AdamWW]

Interesting analogy but a more appropriate analogy would be making people go through security to catch a bus...

Why?

 

[keep truckin]

The problem with analogies is that people always pick and choose to suit their argument

Can't argue with that as you've just done that yourself.

 

[yorkie]

Can't argue with that as you've just done that yourself.

Are you deliberately missing the point?

 

[Skittle]

It's still not second nature to me to put one on every time I step into a shop or other enclosed space (presumably covered shopping arcades are included even if not in an actual shop?). I don't mind being politely reminded, but I would be very upset if someone "had a go" at me. Most of us have a dozen other things on our minds and sticking a bit of cloth over our faces tends to get overlooked on occasions.

As for wearing them every time we leave home, that sounds like the quickest way to torpedo what's left of the economy... only online shopping will survive.

Here anyway, definitely shopping centres/arcades etc all consider enclosed/in building so a mask is required throughout the whole thing. But it's interesting you say about if someone "had a go" - I was in a shop a few weeks ago and how abruptly the woman behind the till just said "eh, mask?!" to this elderly couple was shocking for me. Luckily, you couldn't paint a red face on the couple and they calmly replied they're exempt and the woman left it but still, there are better ways to ask.

I am worried about retail, as it's what I currently work in, signed up for college this year in part due to that concern.

On another note, not sure if it's been asked already but are people wearing masks in the stations? I see it's very split where I am. I always just jam mine on as soon as I get there (as it's what goes over the announcements and if someones tells me to jump I'd probably ask how high to be honest). Sometimes I see people sheepishly put on their masks when I put mine on at the station though I feel quite bad when that happens as I really don't want to make anyone feel uncomfortable or anything, I think we're all just trying to find the best way around things.

 

[jtuk]

It is. And?

Have you ever asked yourself how many people are deterred from trying to hijack or blow up a plane compared to the number of completely innocent people going through airport security?

Airport security is widely referred to as security theatre for a reason

 

[AdamWW]

Airport security is widely referred to as security theatre for a reason

True. I did say "deterred" not "caught".

Now there is the aspect of it possibly being there to reassure travellers rather than actually do any good.

Again perhaps there is a parallel with masks.

But whatever the justification is for airport security is, it is something widely accepted by society that ostensibly targets everyone in order to reach a tiny, tiny. tiny minority.

 

[43066]

True. I did say "deterred" not "caught".

Now there is the aspect of it possibly being there to reassure travellers rather than actually do any good.

Again perhaps there is a parallel with masks.

But whatever the justification is for airport security is, it is something widely accepted by society that ostensibly targets everyone in order to reach a tiny, tiny. tiny minority.

Unlike visiting a shop or boarding a bus or train, flying is something most people do occasionally, and as such airport security is a minor inconvenience. Having to wear face coverings while going about everyday activities, and having other severe restrictions placed on everyday life, is a great deal more intrusive and onerous.

I agree there is a parallel between airport security and masks: both are examples of doing things for appearances sake, in reaction to a tiny actual risk, in order to appease the paranoid.

 

[yorkie]

No-one sensible is going to argue that the security measures put in place for air travel aren't proportionate. The analogy makes no sense in its original form.

If you're desperate to use security measures as a comparator with masks then you're going to have to find a different context; perhaps for example using the Spanish approach of security checks at major railway stations. But even then, I'm not sure how good this analogy really is?

Most analogies are good for amusement purposes only.

 

[LowLevel]

You can always tell what a conductor thinks of the face covering law by listening to their announcements. If they are very emphatic (You MUST wear it, you will get fined, keep us safe) then it’s clear they think they work well, if they give a polite reminder it’s clear they agree with the law but don’t necessarily think they work perfectly. If they disagree with them, you’ll often/normally not hear them mentioned, just a general observation.

What about those of us who don't let our personal opinions cloud our work and just do what we are asked/meant to be doing dispassionately I do my job the way I am told to by my employer whether I necessarily agree with them or not.

I find the whole thing funny. I have no opinion on the matter really because I don't consider myself a self appointed expert, wearing a mask doesn't bother me personally and I'm quite happy to get on with it. I don't like having arguments on board my trains so I make announcements about not harassing people with exemptions which would lead you to believe, I assume, that I want to support the exempt or tacitly believe the rules are silly.

My actual opinion is that the exemption list being weirdly specific and not specific at the same time is the biggest cause of disputes and if it's that important to have this law there shouldn't be a list of self policing exemptions and people will, like the myriad other restrictions, learn to live with it or not. It hasn't been causing world war 3 in other countries that have taken that approach as far as I can tell.

Much like everything else to do with the approach to this situation it is an untidy mess that does nobody any favours.

However, I do believe in maintaining order on my trains and those exempt for whatever reason are within the rule of law. So I fight their corner because as the person in charge of the train, that is my job.

 

[MikeWM]

Silly discussion on Saturday evening at one of my regular cinema haunts. Was last there a couple of weeks back; asked them about mask exemptions; reassured it wasn't an issue; saw a film.

This time, staff bloke (probably different from last time; not entirely trivial to tell when everyone is wearing a mask) comes over while I'm booking a ticket, asks (politely), I tell him I can't (and that this has already been discussed on my previous visit).

'Got any proof?'

Not really in the mood for a debate, I pull out my home-made exemption card I've stuck to the back of my phone.

'That's fine, thanks'

If anyone can tell me the point of that exchange I'm happy to hear it!

 

[Huntergreed]

Silly discussion on Saturday evening at one of my regular cinema haunts. Was last there a couple of weeks back; asked them about mask exemptions; reassured it wasn't an issue; saw a film.

This time, staff bloke (probably different from last time; not entirely trivial to tell when everyone is wearing a mask) comes over while I'm booking a ticket, asks (politely), I tell him I can't (and that this has already been discussed on my previous visit).

'Got any proof?'

Not really in the mood for a debate, I pull out my home-made exemption card I've stuck to the back of my phone.

'That's fine, thanks'

If anyone can tell me the point of that exchange I'm happy to hear it!

Please do report that request for proof to the cinema, who will (I'm sure) be more than happy to remind staff that proof isn't required.

It's astonishing the amount of people who think you need an 'exemption certificate', from conductors, to shop staff, to cinema staff, to even police. Do they really believe it or are they just asking for trouble is what I wonder

 

[DB]

My actual opinion is that the exemption list being weirdly specific and not specific at the same time is the biggest cause of disputes and if it's that important to have this law there shouldn't be a list of self policing exemptions and people will, like the myriad other restrictions, learn to live with it or not. It hasn't been causing world war 3 in other countries that have taken that approach as far as I can tell.

Probably in those countries people who can't wear masks are simply excluded from anywhere requiring masks - an even more disproportionate response than in this country, given the lack of evidence that masks actually make any difference.

 

[MikeWM]

It's astonishing the amount of people who think you need an 'exemption certificate', from conductors, to shop staff, to cinema staff, to even police. Do they really believe it or are they just asking for trouble is what I wonder

And yet for them, in my experience, a quick flash of a home-made rectangle of paper (admittedly quite a smart-looking one, if i do say so myself ) always seems to suffice. [1]

I suppose you could argue that if you've gone to the effort of making that, you're not just entirely trivially 'trying it on' - but it still seems an odd state of affairs.


[1] I suppose I really ought to be doing the right thing every time and pointing out that this isn't required, rather than go along with it and in a way vindicate their request for proof, but sometimes I'm really not in the mood for a debate :-/

 

[AdamWW]

And yet for them, in my experience, a quick flash of a home-made rectangle of paper (admittedly quite a smart-looking one, if i do say so myself ) always seems to suffice. [1]

I suppose you could argue that if you've gone to the effort of making that, you're not just entirely trivially 'trying it on' - but it still seems an odd state of affairs.


[1] I suppose I really ought to be doing the right thing every time and pointing out that this isn't required, rather than go along with it and in a way vindicate their request for proof, but sometimes I'm really not in the mood for a debate :-/

A mess isn't it?

If a silly home-printed 'certificate' does the job, then why not make life easy?

But given that the law (or is it guidance?) says that people shouldn't be 'routinely' challenged, then maybe people should be arguing the point.

I don't know how an organistion is supposed to set up a policy to challenge people non-routinely.

Under what circumstances should they be challenged?

If they look like they don't have an exemption? I really hope that wasn't the intention.

So what else? Just challenge every 50th person who tries to come in without a mask?

 

[Huntergreed]

Face coverings are now mandatory in Scottish pubs/restaurants unless eating/drinking. I know a lot of pubs who are unhappy with this rule and say that this/combined with the “2 households” rule in Scotland is going to kill their business.

 

[LowLevel]

Probably in those countries people who can't wear masks are simply excluded from anywhere requiring masks - an even more disproportionate response than in this country, given the lack of evidence that masks actually make any difference.

I would imagine a larger percentage are forced to try it and find they can manage better than they assumed if they really have to, and a smaller percentage as you say are in the position where they're somewhat restricted to a greater or lesser extent depending on where you are. I've not seen the usual French burning cars response as yet (bar the tragic case of the bus driver).

I think my current exasperation is more down to the fact I am regularly undertaking ticket inspections and attempting to make them as efficient and unintrusive for all concerned as possible. Instead of showing me their ticket I keep having individuals thrusting home made exemption cards in my face and then getting the hump when I say I couldn't give a monkeys about their card or indeed their exemption, I've asked for a train ticket as if my acknowledging it would validate it in some way. It seems to be a certain subset, usually an entire family that will turn up clutching these cards and spend their whole journey troughing snacks and beer and then leave the mess for us to clean up.

People who are genuinely concerned about exemptions and ask me about them of course have my sympathy and indeed my time to talk about where they stand in terms of the law in a reassuring way.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Face coverings are now mandatory in Scottish pubs/restaurants unless eating/drinking. I know a lot of pubs who are unhappy with this rule and say that this/combined with the “2 households” rule in Scotland is going to kill their business.

As pubs generally exist for meeting people not in your household, I can see the concern of the latter.

If the former, which is such a minor thing (how much time do you spend wandering around a pub as distinct from sitting drinking?), puts customers off, then it is the customers that are to blame.