First Group Sheffield - London via Retford open access proposal

[H&I]

So now we know where the 222s are going - and we were all wrong .

Would it not make more sense for them to use Hull Trains’ existing Class 802? It doesn’t make sense to maintain a different of train just for two return journeys a day. On the other hand, Hull Trains have also that announced they are doubling up their services to 10 coaches, so from Wednesdays to Sundays there may not be enough existing units to also run Sheffield service.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

there may not be enough existing units to also run Sheffield service.

That is the reason 802s aren't suitable, there's not enough.
In theory longer-term Hitachi could make them some more bi-modes.

 

[cactustwirly]

Looking at the F3s included in the application they're interestingly numbering the services as if many more trains are on their agenda in the future:

SX
1A82 0920 Sheffield to Kings Cross
1A86 1654 Sheffield to Kings Cross
1G03 1248 Kings Cross to Sheffield
1G07 1956 Kings Cross to Sheffield

SO
1A82 0920 Sheffield to Kings Cross
1A86 1654 Sheffield to Kings Cross
1G03 1248 Kings Cross to Sheffield
1G07 2027 Kings Cross to Sheffield

SuO
1A82 0957 Sheffield to Kings Cross
1A86 1714 Sheffield to Kings Cross
1G03 1256 Kings Cross to Sheffield
1G07 1956 Kings Cross to Sheffield

Of course 'G' for a planned service on the Eastern Region is total nonsense. Really these should be 'J' but whereas Northern Scarborough to Sheffield are from 1J3x upwards Monday to Saturday on Sundays they're 1J0x for no apparent reason.

It's also interesting quite how much dwell time some of these trains have, for instance SX 1A82 has 2 minutes at Woodhouse, 6 at Worksop and 15 at Retford!

https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sale-of-access-rights/Consultations/Current%20Track%20Access%20Consultations/05.01.2024%20-%20Hull%20Trains%20-%20Section%2022A%20-%2027th%20SA%20-%20Closes%2005.02.2024/HT%20Sheffield%20F3%20Prints.pdf

Even if you cut out the dwell at Retford it's not any quicker than EMR.
There's a myth that people like to peddle that the MML is slow and a Kings Cross to Nottingham/Sheffield service would be much faster, looking at those timings I don't see how that's possible

 

[Chester1]

That is the reason 802s aren't suitable, there's not enough.
In theory longer-term Hitachi could make them some more bi-modes.

I think Modern Railways said a while back that Hitachi had basically priced itself out of future 80X orders and that was a major factor in LNER chosing CAF. That was a much bigger order than Hull Trains will need for the Sheffield service.

 

[duffield]

Even if you cut out the dwell at Retford it's not any quicker than EMR.
There's a myth that people like to peddle that the MML is slow and a Kings Cross to Nottingham/Sheffield service would be much faster, looking at those timings I don't see how that's possible

As far as Nottingham to Kings Cross is concerned, yes, even if you could do the 23 miles to Grantham in about 20 minutes rather than the current 30 minutes non-stop (some upgrades would be required I'd guess!), you'd still be at around 90 minutes to Kings Cross (stopping once at Grantham then non-stop), which is pretty much identical to what a Nottingham to St. Pancras service would take if it only stopped at Leicester (1hr37m minus the Kettering and Market Harborough stops).

If there were spare paths going begging on the ECML south of Grantham, a competing service via an alternative route *might* make sense anyhow, but I'm pretty sure there are better uses for any such paths if they exist!

 

[baz962]

As far as Nottingham to Kings Cross is concerned, yes, even if you could do the 23 miles to Grantham in about 20 minutes rather than the current 30 minutes non-stop (some upgrades would be required I'd guess!), you'd still be at around 90 minutes to Kings Cross (stopping once at Grantham then non-stop), which is pretty much identical to what a Nottingham to St. Pancras service would take if it only stopped at Leicester (1hr37m minus the Kettering and Market Harborough stops).

If there were spare paths going begging on the ECML south of Grantham, a competing service via an alternative route *might* make sense anyhow, but I'm pretty sure there are better uses for any such paths if they exist!

If you were meddling with stuff and an EMR only stopped Leicester and all green signals and nothing in the way it would be around 1 hour 25 minutes.

 

[snowball]

The possibility of direct services from Worksop to London was the lead item on the lunchtime Yorkshire edition of Look North on BBC1 just now.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Even if you cut out the dwell at Retford it's not any quicker than EMR.
There's a myth that people like to peddle that the MML is slow and a Kings Cross to Nottingham/Sheffield service would be much faster, looking at those timings I don't see how that's possible

No one's taking the MML away from you; if you want to travel that way, you can still do so.

 

[cactustwirly]

No one's taking the MML away from you; if you want to travel that way, you can still do so.

I never said they were, I still think it's a pointless service

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I never said they were, I still think it's a pointless service

I know, but it being of no use to you personally doesn't, in my view, demerit the operation.

 

[BrianW]

I know, but it being of no use to you personally doesn't, in my view, demerit the operation.

Back in the day ... I looked up times Sheffield <> London in my October 1964 ABC Railway Guide:
Sheff Midland dep 7.6, St Pan arr 10.15, Restaurant car service = 3h9; 12-13 tpd
Another Route: Sheff Victoria dep 7.20, KX arr 10.0, Pullman service, M-F, 2h50; 9-10 tpd
Another Route: Sheff Vic dep12.45. M'bone arr 5.25 = 4h40; 1 tpd e.w.
Same fares; make your choice

Nottingham Midland dep 8.0, St Pan arr 10.0, Restaurant car service = 2h; 16tpd; 31/-2nd class (1h55 teatime Pullman- 1st class only)
Another Route: Nott Vic dep 8.15, M'bone arr 11,25 = 3h10; 4tpd
Another Route: Nott Vic dep 6.55, KX arr 9.50, Restaurant car service = 2h55; 7-8 tpd; 32/- (Nott London Rd- 3 mins shorter, same fare)
Easier choice!

Worksop- KX via Retford- 10tpd, approx 3h, 36/9 2nd class
Worksop- St Pan via Nottm- 3tpd, quickest 3h58, 39/-
No real choice.

 

[doa46231]

Most interesting.
i was a student at Sheffield Uni in the early 60's (so you can guess how old I am now!)
When I had a weekend at home in North london, I usually caught the Thamesv-Clyde Express" or the "Waverley" that both called at Sheffield Midland in the afternoon on their journeys from Scotland.

Occasionally I got a Pullman service from Sheffield Victoria that ran to Kings Cross.
It was a sign of the times that I could afford the few bob extra to travel on it.

There was even a train that ran from Manchester to Marylebone calling at Sheffield Victoria that stopped at Harrow on the Hill, which was only a bus ride(the 18!) from my home, or more importantly within walking distance of my girl friends house!

The point being I could go to the station, buy my ticket and go.
There were no railcards in those days but the fares were affordable even to a student by noi means wealthy.
I dont believe the OA operators are offering anything novel. The OP is right, we need routes which are not covered by franchisees.

But of course, no money can be made on these routes.

I dont believe the Open access operators add anything which the Franchisees couldn't offer.
But they are constrained by the terms of their franchise, and lets face it, they are quite happy as they are and have no insentive to do more.
Our railway has become a sort of cl;osed off elite system that the vast majority of the population have no interes in, and worse still, wouldnt mind if it closed down tomorrow.

BR for all its faults was part of the fabric of the Nation, as most of the European systems still are.
Ours is just a nuisance to the Govt. who begrudge every penny spent on it.

Unfortunately the words of Chris Green, one of the best managers our railways have had are as true today as ever.

"People travel on our trains because they have to, not because they want to"

 

[BrianW]

Most interesting.
i was a student at Sheffield Uni in the early 60's (so you can guess how old I am now!)
When I had a weekend at home in North london, I usually caught the Thamesv-Clyde Express" or the "Waverley" that both called at Sheffield Midland in the afternoon on their journeys from Scotland.

Occasionally I got a Pullman service from Sheffield Victoria that ran to Kings Cross.
It was a sign of the times that I could afford the few bob extra to travel on it.

There was even a train that ran from Manchester to Marylebone calling at Sheffield Victoria that stopped at Harrow on the Hill, which was only a bus ride(the 18!) from my home, or more importantly within walking distance of my girl friends house!

The point being I could go to the station, buy my ticket and go.
There were no railcards in those days but the fares were affordable even to a student by noi means wealthy.
I dont believe the OA operators are offering anything novel. The OP is right, we need routes which are not covered by franchisees.

But of course, no money can be made on these routes.

I dont believe the Open access operators add anything which the Franchisees couldn't offer.
But they are constrained by the terms of their franchise, and lets face it, they are quite happy as they are and have no insentive to do more.
Our railway has become a sort of cl;osed off elite system that the vast majority of the population have no interes in, and worse still, wouldnt mind if it closed down tomorrow.

BR for all its faults was part of the fabric of the Nation, as most of the European systems still are.
Ours is just a nuisance to the Govt. who begrudge every penny spent on it.

Unfortunately the words of Chris Green, one of the best managers our railways have had are as true today as ever.

"People travel on our trains because they have to, not because they want to"

Happy memories ...

The 39/9 2nd class single fare Sheffield- London in 1964 (3d change from £2) converts to £40 'in present prices' (https://www.inflationtool.com/british-pound/1964-to-present-value). The RailForumUK site shows travel tomorrow booking now one-way Sheffield-London for £65.00 direct to St Pancras (9am dep- 11.09arr); £42.50 an hour later; £29.10 (with or without 16-25 railcard?), 8.56 dep- KX arr 11.30 change Doncaster. OK, not 'walk-up' fares!

 

[doa46231]

Happy memories ...

The 39/9 2nd class single fare Sheffield- London in 1964 (3d change from £2) converts to £40 'in present prices' (https://www.inflationtool.com/british-pound/1964-to-present-value). The RailForumUK site shows travel tomorrow booking now one-way Sheffield-London for £65.00 direct to St Pancras (9am dep- 11.09arr); £42.50 an hour later; £29.10 (with or without 16-25 railcard?), 8.56 dep- KX arr 11.30 change Doncaster. OK, not 'walk-up' fares!

This shows the terrible state our fare structure is in.
Most people cant be bothered with it.
Last time I went on a train to Sheffield it was in 1995.
£34 RETURN! supersaver.
What is that now in real money?
That was the walk-up fare after 09.30.

 

[gaillark]

£34 RETURN! supersaver.
What is that now in real money?

£67 (according to Bank of England). Inflation averaged 2.4% a year.

 

[danbarjon]

I've been having a look at the Track Access Consultations and it says the London KX to Sheffield timing load is a Class 221. Hull Trains also gave a Specified Equipment list and it includes Class 221 and Class 222. Given that CrossCountry didn't take all of Avanti's 221s is this looking likely?

 

[anthony263]

I've been having a look at the Track Access Consultations and it says the London KX to Sheffield timing load is a Class 221. Hull Trains also gave a Specified Equipment list and it includes Class 221 and Class 222. Given that CrossCountry didn't take all of Avanti's 221s is this looking likely?

Both types are being sought after by a few open access operators

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Both types are being sought after by a few open access operators

They've got to second guess how long they've got to wait for them though

 

[trainswitheddy]

I've been having a look at the Track Access Consultations and it says the London KX to Sheffield timing load is a Class 221. Hull Trains also gave a Specified Equipment list and it includes Class 221 and Class 222. Given that CrossCountry didn't take all of Avanti's 221s is this looking likely?

It's definitely possible they go for 221s, seeing as though 810s still look a while off so 222s being released will take time...

 

[Clarence Yard]

The timing load is always for the slowest train you could possibly use.

The current uncertainty over the ECML timetable is going to lead to a delay in the ORR opining on this (and other) track access applications.

 

[Snow1964]

The timing load is always for the slowest train you could possibly use.

The current uncertainty over the ECML timetable is going to lead to a delay in the ORR opining on this (and other) track access applications.

The ORR shouldn't really delay these, its own figures (table 3.2 on this recent ORR report) show that East Midlands is only using 85% of its track access rights. LNER is using just 69% of its rights.

Yes, 31% of LNER track access rights are not being used, effectively paths being hoarded, that could be utilised by a train that actually runs (even if it is another operator)

If the current operators aren't using their access rights, are not planning on timetabling and running them in next half year period, and someone else wants them, then delaying reallocating them seems rather poor show by ORR

https://www.orr.gov.uk/media/25457/download

 

[takno]

The ORR shouldn't really delay these, its own figures (table 3.2 on this recent ORR report) show that East Midlands is only using 85% of its track access rights. LNER is using just 69% of its rights.

Yes, 31% of LNER track access rights are not being used, effectively paths being hoarded, that could be utilised by a train that actually runs (even if it is another operator)

If the current operators aren't using their access rights, are not planning on timetabling and running them in next half year period, and someone else wants them, then delaying reallocating them seems rather poor show by ORR

https://www.orr.gov.uk/media/25457/download

As the linked document notes, this is about use of a theoretical right, and one of the reasons for it not being used is that NR are unable to timetable it. I suspect that LNER's access rights include the hourly Edinburgh fast which they've been unable to timetable for several years. It's not 100% clear, but I think the figures also remove trains which were p-code cancelled as a result of the strikes, and quite likely any other planned cancellations for things like engineering work.

In summary, an unused right doesn't equate in any way to an unused path, so there isn't actually anything to take away and award elsewhere.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Legally, the ORR cannot grant rights to part of a network where the infrastructure provider is unable to accommodate existing operators who hold existing firm rights.

The only way those existing rights could be surrendered is either via Part J of the Network Code (under the better use provisions) or through the requirements of the “Congested Infrastructure” clauses in the Regs themselves.

Funnily enough, the ORR has written to NR asking why they haven’t yet declared the ECML as “Congested”.

 

[Magdalia]

Back in the day ... I looked up times Sheffield <> London in my October 1964 ABC Railway Guide

I looked these up in my ER public timetable.

Another Route: Sheff Victoria dep 7.20, KX arr 10.0, Pullman service, M-F, 2h50; 9-10 tpd

The 7:20 and 3:20 were the Pullman services through from Sheffield to Kings Cross. The only other through train was the 5:43 to Retford which was a portion attaching to a train from Bradford and Leeds at Retford. None of these stopped at Worksop.

All of the other services required a change at Retford.

Another Route: Sheff Vic dep12.45. M'bone arr 5.25 = 4h40; 1 tpd e.w.

This was the Manchester to Marylebone sleeper. 12:45 and 5:25 are overnight times!

 

[Snow1964]

As the linked document notes, this is about use of a theoretical right, and one of the reasons for it not being used is that NR are unable to timetable it. I suspect that LNER's access rights include the hourly Edinburgh fast which they've been unable to timetable for several years. It's not 100% clear, but I think the figures also remove trains which were p-code cancelled as a result of the strikes, and quite likely any other planned cancellations for things like engineering work.

In summary, an unused right doesn't equate in any way to an unused path, so there isn't actually anything to take away and award elsewhere.

OK, I was under impression table 3.1 was the percentage being timetabled, and table 3.2 the percentage actually used after cancellations etc.

But seems they are not using over 1 in 4 track access rights which rather suggests they have far too many rights, and no reason not to allocate a few access rights to a newcomer instead.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The real comparison is what trains LNER are timetabling now as opposed to the rights they hold in Schedule 5 of their TAA. Currently, for SX trains, it is 78% in both directions. They would like to run more but there are problems accommodating the trains. Likewise, GTR have unused rights, about a dozen each way that involve running onto the Cambridge branch and nearly ten each way to Peterborough. Similarly, they are having problems being accommodated.

The ORR approved these rights on the basis of infrastructure improvements which have only been done in part so we now have a situation where more rights have been approved than can realistically be accommodated. The ORR is currently pushing NR on this issue.

So the ORR can’t just approve further rights to any applicant until they know there is space, either now or by operators surrendering rights (through the mechanisms outlined in #203). If the ECML infrastructure gets officially declared as “Congested” (which is what the ORR is pushing NR to do) it is doubtful that the HT application will succeed.