News report: At King's Cross, train details will be deleted from departure boards three minutes before they leave.

[Failed Unit]

It's a London terminus; the transfer times will only be from London Underground and/or walking.

Also GN services, Potters Bar - Edinburgh for example. However, it is extremely unlikely any one would be arriving from the connection without enough time to see the platform for the next train.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Although of course you don’t need to be an expert user to arrive more than two minutes before departure.

For other stations, which may be what someone making an unusual trip from kings cross may be used to, two minutes before departure means the train is only just pulling into the previous station.

And of course, especially at London terminus stations, most people aren't late because of their own choices - it's because of tube etc delays. And whilst yes that can happen and that's just something we have to live with, there's multiple times I've made a train from Paddington by the skin of my teeth because of a tube delay. I don't see why me missing those trains instead would have been a better outcome.

 

[Failed Unit]

Radio 2 reporting that trains will be removed from the departure board 4 minutes prior to departure rather than 3.

My view is 4 minutes is excessively long. I can get from the Victoria Line platform to train at Kings Cross in three minutes, yes that's by being in the very rear carriage of a northbound Victoria Line train, a brisk walk (not run) up the escalator.

Isn't the automated final call currently set at three minutes? Is this going to change as well?

Do you actually look at the monitors when you are doing that, or know where you are going before you even get off the tube?

 

[Horizon22]

Also GN services, Potters Bar - Edinburgh for example. However, it is extremely unlikely any one would be arriving from the connection without enough time to see the platform for the next train.

Yes there is always going to be a small number of inner/outer London journeys out and back for intercity services for the ECML (and also others e.g. WCML, GEML, GWML). As you say, connection time would be more than approriate for a 1 minute difference

 

[Hadders]

The article says final call (i.e audio) at -4 mins & off the boards (i.e visual) at -3 mins, so perhaps the Radio 2 report got the two conflated?

Increasingly I find stations don't do last calls or at least they do not apply to every train.

That explains it!

 

[AM9]

This is a fair point.



I don’t read it that anyone is advocating taking trains off platform screens. But certainly you could take departures off the main concourse departure board at New Street without it causing confusion.

For screens such as at the King’s Cross platform ends, presumably it would be possible to have something like “stand clear - this train is now preparing to depart”, rather than moving forward to the next service. How you’d get that to work consistently at an intermediate station I’m less sure, and agree it probably wouldn’t be desirable.

Then there are those that would see that as a 5-10 seconds opportunity for them to get their hand in the closing doors and hold it until the guard/driver releases it, thereby adding at least a minute's delay to the actual departure. This is just the current mentality of many in the UK. Those driving to the station, probably left it a bit tight, meaning that any driver in front of them doing less than an F1 start from standstill 'made' them arrive just too late at the station. They probably dash through traffic lights as they change from Amber to Red, get pushy with anybody walking normally into and through the station etc.. This theatre is repeated every commuting day, and rather than giving themselves adequate time, they feel that they are far more important than everybody else.

 

[yorkie]

What a nonsensical and absolutely customer-unfriendly concept.

Welcome to the UK railway network! I really notice how backwards we are every time I visit certain other countries.

Without having checked, I assume that the minimum transfer times have not been adapted to this regulation and the TOC continue to sell such connections without flinching.

Spot on.

However I would oppose any changes to the transfer times, as this would lengthen journeys. Far better to get delay compensation in my opinion (people who are keen to avoid a delay can specify additional interchange time, depending on the website they use; ours allows for this!)

The problem can easily be solved with the already existing WTT and PTB,

Correct, but in the UK we don't like to do things properly.

without the customer having to deal with randomly generated “buffer times” that vary from station to station and depend on the moon phase and star sign of the station manager.

There are some people in the industry who behave in a way that looks like they see passengers as an inconvenience to the running of trains; until there is a cultural change, this sort of logic just doesn't get a look in.

It's funny that you mention this, because it is the non-regular users who are most affected by this regulation. This is precisely the user group that knows the least about such “local specialties”.

The UK rail industry doesn't particularly want to attract people to rail; at busy times the trains on many routes are full and the Government doesn't want to pay for additional capacity, so we do things like price people off, and deter them in other ways.

The market share of rail in the UK is very much lower than certain other countries, as it's more 'convenient' for it to be kept that way. As there is insufficient capacity for the demand, people who support the anti-passenger sentiment can point to "full trains" as evidence that their policies are correct, while ignoring the fact that in sensible countries the capacity would increase to match demand.

It's a London terminus; the transfer times will only be from London Underground and/or walking.

Not always; the fastest itineraries from York and beyond to stations as far out as potentially Welwyn can be via King's Cross.

 

[bahnause]

There are some people in the industry who behave in a way that looks like they see passengers as an inconvenience to the running of trains; until there is a cultural change, this sort of logic just doesn't get a look in.

It might be even worse. They might actually believe they are doing something useful. Never attribute something to malice if it could also be explained by incompetence.

 

[Indigo Soup]

So, you are a confident regular traveller. Does that mean the whole railway should be tailored to your requirements and not to those of the less confident and less regular?

I'm unsure how removing information makes it easier for those who are less confident.

Yes, we should all aim to turn up in plenty of time. But sometimes that doesn't happen, for reasons beyond our control.

If the railway really wanted to reduce rushing and make it easier for less-confident, infrequent, or less-mobile passengers, it would try making trains for boarding earlier.

It's a London terminus; the transfer times will only be from London Underground and/or walking.

I'm not sure that makes much difference. Transfers between London terminals aren't uncommon.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The ticket doesn't say I must be at the station three minutes prior to departure. Nowhere in the booking process does it say I must be at the station three minutes prior to departure. The departure time is the time printed on my ticket, not three minutes before it.

If LNER wish to move towards an airline-style process- and clearly the driver behind this is LNER wanting to move towards an airline-style process- then this should be communicated to people clearly. Either the condition to be at the station at least three minutes prior to departure is clearly communicated or LNER start adding three minutes' buffer to the public timetable.

As for the merits of the idea, even the usually mild-mannered Guardian describe it in two words: ‘So patronising’.

‘So patronising’: rail bosses spark anger by hiding train departure times

passengers have reacted with fury, saying they should be given the information to decide for themselves.

Many also fear the system will cause more rushing than it prevents.

If the railway really wanted to reduce rushing and make it easier for less-confident, infrequent, or less-mobile passengers, it would try making trains for boarding earlier.

And the industry would stop Advance tickets having such a cliff-edge. Miss your train because of this stupid policy and, on LNER, you will likely be hundreds of pounds out of pocket.

That's one area where LNER aren't quite so keen to follow the airline industry, weirdly enough. EasyJet will let you catch the next flight if you pay them £110. LNER make you buy a whole new Anytime ticket.

 

[43066]

I suppose the question here is, if a passenger arrives at the station two and a half minutes before their train is due to depart, have they missed the train? How about one minute? Or thirty seconds?

An awful lot of passengers, comparing long-distance trains to buses and local trains, would argue that they have not missed the train until the doors have closed for departure. A reasonable number would say that they haven't missed it until the advertised departure time, notwithstanding any 'doors close 30 seconds before departure' type policies.

This could be dealt with by adopting (and publicising) a policy of “platforms close (say) two minutes prior to departure”. You might make it but, if you chance your arm, you’ve left less than the minimum advertised time.

It’s clear that LNER think if you’re leaving less than three minutes, then that is insufficient. That seems perfectly reasonable to me for long distance services.

Then there are those that would see that as a 5-10 seconds opportunity for them to get their hand in the closing doors and hold it until the guard/driver releases it, thereby adding at least a minute's delay to the actual departure.

Of course the key thing to do in that situation is not to release the doors, as it will only encourage the behaviour.

As for the merits of the idea, even the usually mild-mannered Guardian describe it in two words: so dumb.

I’m not sure a few moans on X, which appears to be all that article is based on, is at all representative.

 

[K.o.R]

2 minutes is bad enough - there is none of this nonsense in Switzerland where the train details remain on the screen right up to the point of departure.

In Belgium I saw the train being removed from the departure board by the guard on the train! (He used a key on a box on the platform that changed the platform board to say "Boarding closed")

 

[Failed Unit]

I'm unsure how removing information makes it easier for those who are less confident.

Yes, we should all aim to turn up in plenty of time. But sometimes that doesn't happen, for reasons beyond our control.

If the railway really wanted to reduce rushing and make it easier for less-confident, infrequent, or less-mobile passengers, it would try making trains for boarding earlier.


I'm not sure that makes much difference. Transfers between London terminals aren't uncommon.

You keep saying this will make things worse for less-mobile passengers? How? If you are in a wheelchair and you are not on the platform in front of the train a reasonable time before hand you are not getting on. They are not getting the ramp out for someone presenting themselves 3 minutes before the train is due to leave. I know this from personal experience, you need to leave more time and you know it.
Granted I am using a local service, so it is normally 30 minutes until the next train. You can't turn up anywhere last minute if you are in a wheelchair. It does take time to cross the station when you need to battle your way through passengers' baggage.

At many stations in the UK the minimum connection is 7 minutes, in a wheelchair you can be lucky to even be in the lift after 7 minutes and need to click on the "allow extra time" button when booking.

So I can't see how removing the departures from the board 3 minutes before departure is going to make any difference.

 

[mpthomson]

Because flying is for a lot of people something they do maybe a couple of times a year for special trips like annual holidays. You expect long check-ins at the airport because of all the checking luggage in and checking in and passport control and finding their way round an unfamiliar airport and such like, so it's not unreasonable to expect that people plan for it and allow additional hours on their journeys.

Train journeys are on the other hand things that lots of people do several times a week or even every day. They are completely routine and so people not unreasonably expect them to be completed as quickly and conveniently as possible. Asking someone to arrive 10-15 minutes early to get their train could easily add up to several days out of their life over the course of a year.

The large majority of the country doesn't use trains at all, let alone several times a week.

 

[KNN]

It's such a non-story, how has this thread reached 5 pages?

I just watched it happen at New Street, the 14:47 went off the main board at 14:45. Should I inform the media?

 

[williamn]

It’s clear that LNER think if you’re leaving less than three minutes, then that is insufficient. That seems perfectly reasonable to me for long distance services.

A good many trains at Kings Cross are not long distance and lots of LNER trains stop at Stevenage.

 

[MontyP]

At London Waterloo trains are removed in advance but there wouldbe times when said train night depart up to 6 minutes late but because it was displayed as on time, it would be removed from the board.

Of course you get the opposite. At Clapham Junction trains replaced on the footbridge platform screens after the trains have departed.

At Waterloo, the boards at the platform ends (beyond the gate line) display the information until the train departs, at least on the suburbans. I know the departure times exactly, so if the service has disappeared from the main board then I just go through the nearest barrier to platforms 1-5 and then walk along until I see my service, and jump on at the last door just before departure.

 

[bramling]

A good many trains at Kings Cross are not long distance and lots of LNER trains stop at Stevenage.

Stevenage is served by a combined 8tph from King’s Cross or St Pancras at off-peak times, with more at peak times. The longest anyone would have to wait for the next fast service would be 15 minutes. Hardly the end of the world to miss one and have to wait for the next.

 

[Failed Unit]

Stevenage is served by a combined 8tph from King’s Cross or St Pancras at off-peak times, with more at peak times. The longest anyone would have to wait for the next fast service would be 15 minutes. Hardly the end of the world to miss one and have to wait for the next.

Speaking of which, how long ahead of departure are they removed from the boards at KX?

 

[Indigo Soup]

And the industry would stop Advance tickets having such a cliff-edge. Miss your train because of this stupid policy and, on LNER, you will likely be hundreds of pounds out of pocket.

Stopping treating Advance tickets like the default ticket would probably solve two-thirds of the passenger experience problems on the railway, IMO.

You keep saying this will make things worse for less-mobile passengers? How? If you are in a wheelchair and you are not on the platform in front of the train a reasonable time before hand you are not getting on. They are not getting the ramp out for someone presenting themselves 3 minutes before the train is due to leave. I know this from personal experience, you need to leave more time and you know it.

For wheelchair users, it's clearly not going to make much difference. There may be some other less-mobile people who it would affect, but I'm talking about confidence - an entirely different matter.

My wife, for example, is fully mobile, but an anxious traveller. If her train disappeared from the departures board three minutes before it left, and she wasn't on it yet, she'd assume it was cancelled and react accordingly. And yes, she'd have planned to get to the station well in advance - but if those plans fell apart, she'd already be riddled with stress.

Adding to that stress would be defensible if it had a clear benefit. I don't think it's at all clear that it does.

 

[bramling]

Speaking of which, how long ahead of departure are they removed from the boards at KX?

No idea, but I could check tonight if I remember!

 

[Failed Unit]

No idea, but I could check tonight if I remember!

I am not sure if they still even display them (show how little attention I pay to the boards)

 

[jon0844]

For wheelchair users, it's clearly not going to make much difference. There may be some other less-mobile people who it would affect, but I'm talking about confidence - an entirely different matter.

If a wheelchair user (or anyone needing assistance) is getting assistance on to a train, the staff will know what platform the train is on and be able to board them up to the point where the dispatch process begins.

 

[The Planner]

Is that 13.00:00 or 13.00:59? You'd miss it at the former and catch it at the latter. WTT departures are usually listed in quarter minutes.

Half minutes.

 

[The exile]

Increasingly I find stations don't do last calls or at least they do not apply to every train.

Not sure I’ve ever heard a “last call” at a station. On trains in the good old days when there were restaurant cars, but that’s a different matter.

 

[LLivery]

Once, my bus to Nottingham station was cancelled. So was the second. The third turned up and I got to the station at the scheduled departure time. I thought it had left for London as it wasn't on the boards. But in fact, it was still there and was there for another 5 mins. I can't remember how I realised, but decided to try and get it. By the time I had got to the platform, it began to depart. That cost me something like 30 quid. Things like that get on people's nerves.

People run in this country simply by hearing the announcement 3 mins before departure. This idea you can ever stop people running in stations is the UK's irritating blame X organisation for Y person's own behaviour culture in a nutshell. Advice like 'do not run' on platforms make sense, however, East Croydon comes to mind. I'd argue covering up the glass on the ramp just made people more likely run, because as soon as people see alighting passengers walking up the ramp, they can't tell which train they're coming from and start running just in case.

One big thing the railway could do to stop a lot of people running is by making it known widely what the light on the side of cars mean. People always run hoping the doors are unlocked, I stop bothering trying to catch it as soon as I see the light is off.

 

[sheff1]

Bingo. The public timetable should be the last time you can board (or pass any barrier to do so),

Can't agree with that. The 1300 is at the platform, but it is 1315 and it hasn't departed due to a points failure and the doors are unlocked. Why should someone who has just arrived for the 1330 not be allowed to board (assuming their ticket is valid of course).

Not sure I’ve ever heard a “last call” at a station.

Quite common at some stations "the XXX train to YYY is about to depart, all intending passengers please board".

 

[43066]

My wife, for example, is fully mobile, but an anxious traveller. If her train disappeared from the departures board three minutes before it left, and she wasn't on it yet, she'd assume it was cancelled and react accordingly. And yes, she'd have planned to get to the station well in advance - but if those plans fell apart, she'd already be riddled with stress.

But someone who suffers from travel related anxiety will have the same issue irrespective of whether this policy is applied or not. Leaving plenty of time means it’s highly unlikely to be a problem, but clearly there’s always going to be a slim possibility of missing a train due to circumstances beyond your control.

Adding to that stress would be defensible if it had a clear benefit. I don't think it's at all clear that it does.

As someone with years of operational railway experience, and who regularly witnesses the kind of behaviour I described above, I can see a clear benefit to this approach, as can several other staff members who have commented on the thread. Clearly the relevant decision makers at LNER also think there is.

But in fact, it was still there and was there for another 5 mins. I can't remember how I realised, but decided to try and get it. By the time I had got to the platform, it began to depart. That cost me something like 30 quid. Things like that get on people's nerves.

And this is exactly why the policy is a good idea - to prevent latecomers from running onto the platform just as the train is departing, potentially causing a safety risk.

 

[The exile]

Can't agree with that. The 1300 is in the platform, but it is 1315 and it hasn't departed due to a points failure and the doors are unlocked. Why should someone who has just arrived for the 1330 not be allowed to board (assuming their ticket is valid of course).

Especially if the 13.30 has been cancelled and the 14.00 is running 20 minutes late, and/or the passenger has arrived on the 12.50 arrival from somewhere which was itself 25 minutes late.

 

[TUC]

Will this extend to the displays at individual platforms? I'm sure I'm not the only person who has seen on the main departure board which platform my train is leaving from, but by the time I've gone through the barriers it has either slipped my mind or I am doubting myself. To have no confirmation at the individual platforms would be very unhelpful.