December 2022 Timetable Changes

[TT-ONR-NRN]

They’re not chronically unreliable.

They’ve certainly been unreliable whenever I’ve used them.

 

[Jamesrob637]

The Hope Valley stopper gets overwhelmed when the fasts are cancelled, short formed, or very late. (Lower fares currently help to keep them busier too. Leisure users are less bothered about speed, more about price.)

Quite a few on that line will be using rangers too.

 

[frodshamfella]

Having it go through Oxford Road and Castlefield is likely to reduce reliability to an extent, even if the new timetable does improve capacity.


This can be catered for by Northern reinstating their Man Airport service, it doesn't need to go to Sheffield.

Although 2 Liverpool - Sheffield services are more useful, than a Man Air service.

One train per hour from St Helens Junction to Liverpool is a pish take of the highest order.

Quite

 

[Pat Figg]

Full NRT now available at https://timetables.fabdigital.uk/nrt/dec2022/

At the moment the last train from Cardiff Central to Aberdare on a Friday is at 22.41 (it's 2A68 which starts in Bridgend at 21.42). From 11 December it'll be 2A72 as they're finally giving us 2 extra daytime services that are currently reserved for non-existent coal trains. However, from 17 February the new timetable has the 21.42 train from Bridgend as 2F18 terminating at Cardiff Central meaning that the last train to Aberdare on Fridays from 17 Feb to May will be the 21.43 (about an hour earlier than it is at present). I'm really hoping that it's a mistake in the timetable as it's going to mess up a lot of people's Friday nights. Is it likely to be a mistake?

 

[mangyiscute]

At the moment the last train from Cardiff Central to Aberdare on a Friday is at 22.41 (it's 2A68 which starts in Bridgend at 21.42). From 11 December it'll be 2A72 as they're finally giving us 2 extra daytime services that are currently reserved for non-existent coal trains. However, from 17 February the new timetable has the 21.42 train from Bridgend as 2F18 terminating at Cardiff Central meaning that the last train to Aberdare on Fridays from 17 Feb to May will be the 21.43 (about an hour earlier than it is at present). I'm really hoping that it's a mistake in the timetable as it's going to mess up a lot of people's Friday nights. Is it likely to be a mistake?

Looking on RTT I can see the 2241 on there as WTT but I have no idea which one is more likely to be correct

 

[BrianB]

At the moment the last train from Cardiff Central to Aberdare on a Friday is at 22.41 (it's 2A68 which starts in Bridgend at 21.42). From 11 December it'll be 2A72 as they're finally giving us 2 extra daytime services that are currently reserved for non-existent coal trains. However, from 17 February the new timetable has the 21.42 train from Bridgend as 2F18 terminating at Cardiff Central meaning that the last train to Aberdare on Fridays from 17 Feb to May will be the 21.43 (about an hour earlier than it is at present). I'm really hoping that it's a mistake in the timetable as it's going to mess up a lot of people's Friday nights. Is it likely to be a mistake?

Its likely to be an omission, along with a few others. When the table was compiled it was obvious to the eye that there were gaps, but sadly deadlines are deadlines, so what you see is what is in the system now. Hopefully it will probably correct itself over the next few weeks and updates will be made.

 

[geoffk]

Attached is the unit diagram. All 319s.

Blackpool - York has been solid 195s for a few years now.

OK thanks

 

[Pat Figg]

Its likely to be an omission, along with a few others. When the table was compiled it was obvious to the eye that there were gaps, but sadly deadlines are deadlines, so what you see is what is in the system now. Hopefully it will probably correct itself over the next few weeks and updates will be made.

Thanks. I'm hoping it's an omission. It seems likely as the equivalent Saturday night service from 18 Feb is running as normal. It's also in the timetable for Mon-Thurs from 13 Feb onwards though, like a lot of Valleys Lines services during that period, it's a replacement bus due to engineering works for the Metro.

 

[Bikeman78]

The Vic-Wigan is down as a 319

Little snippets from our internal briefing...

331s appearing on Chat Moss working, some Crewe's, and some Stoke's

Only 158 work on the west to be seen on Leeds - Wigan Wallgate. Morecambe too of course

Diagrams for next month are available here

Unit Diagrams December 2022 - a Freedom of Information request to Northern Trains Limited

It would be grateful if you could please forward a complete set of the (LTP) unit diagrams valid from the December 2022 timetable change. Yours faithfully, Aaron Roscoe

www.whatdotheyknow.com

Thanks for this. No more 319s to Crewe from the new timetable.

 

[td97]

The Vic-Wigan is down as a 319

Little snippets from our internal briefing...

331s appearing on Chat Moss working, some Crewe's, and some Stoke's

Only 158 work on the west to be seen on Leeds - Wigan Wallgate. Morecambe too of course

Diagrams for next month are available here

Unit Diagrams December 2022 - a Freedom of Information request to Northern Trains Limited

It would be grateful if you could please forward a complete set of the (LTP) unit diagrams valid from the December 2022 timetable change. Yours faithfully, Aaron Roscoe

www.whatdotheyknow.com

Also showing Hazel Grove should get 3 EMU services per day. The 0710 and 0810, and 1800 return from Piccadilly.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Also showing Hazel Grove should get 3 EMU services per day. The 0710 and 0810, and 1800 return from Piccadilly.

Good for those working broadly standard hours. 09:30-17:30 shift should ensure EMU both ways, hopefully 331.

 

[jfollows]

Good for those working broadly standard hours. 09:30-17:30 shift should ensure EMU both ways, hopefully 331.

18:00 Piccadilly-Hazel Grove is 323, AN 102 diagram
08:10 Hazel Grove-Piccadilly is 331, AN 805 diagram
07:10 Hazel Grove-Piccadilly is 331, AN 820 diagram
from the diagrams posted just above

 

[Watershed]

18:00 Piccadilly-Hazel Grove is 323, AN 102 diagram
08:10 Hazel Grove-Piccadilly is 331, AN 805 diagram
07:10 Hazel Grove-Piccadilly is 331, AN 820 diagram
from the diagrams posted yesterday (I can't currently find where exactly!)

Though in practice I would expect regular substitutions.

Crewe sees 331s booked for the first time. Two of the five Crewe diagrams (services interwork between the Styal and Stockport routes) are 331, as is the peak hour Stoke diagram (07:26 Stoke-Picc, 17:18 Picc-Stoke).

 

[12LDA28C]

I'd encourage it simply without the Greenford line calls. Frankly, who gives one if Castle Bar Park and Drayton Green have bus replacement for a day? They're, along with South Greenford, three of the oddest, most pointless stations going.

What a bizarre comment. What exactly is 'odd' about them?

Even without the intermediate stops, Chiltern would still be limited to 4-car trains to fit in the bay at West Ealing unless they're allowed to use the Up relief which seems unlikely.

 

[jonesy3001]

The Vic-Wigan is down as a 319

Little snippets from our internal briefing...

331s appearing on Chat Moss working, some Crewe's, and some Stoke's

Only 158 work on the west to be seen on Leeds - Wigan Wallgate. Morecambe too of course

Diagrams for next month are available here

Unit Diagrams December 2022 - a Freedom of Information request to Northern Trains Limited

It would be grateful if you could please forward a complete set of the (LTP) unit diagrams valid from the December 2022 timetable change. Yours faithfully, Aaron Roscoe

www.whatdotheyknow.com

Is there a way to download the files without having to extract them?
Wonder if northern are slowly getting rid of the 319s if the 331s are taking over there workings, will they run in 3 car or still in 6 car?

 

[jfollows]

Is there a way to download the files without having to extract them?

What do you mean by this question?
You can download the files as a single ZIP file. What's the problem with that?
If you mean you'd like them in a different format, then here are PDF versions of the diagrams.

 

[jonesy3001]

Nice one, WiFi/signal not good where I am.

 

[Greybeard33]

The Vic-Wigan is down as a 319

Little snippets from our internal briefing...

331s appearing on Chat Moss working, some Crewe's, and some Stoke's

Only 158 work on the west to be seen on Leeds - Wigan Wallgate. Morecambe too of course

Diagrams for next month are available here

Unit Diagrams December 2022 - a Freedom of Information request to Northern Trains Limited

It would be grateful if you could please forward a complete set of the (LTP) unit diagrams valid from the December 2022 timetable change. Yours faithfully, Aaron Roscoe

www.whatdotheyknow.com

Most of the Northern diagrams have an end date at the May 2023 timetable change. But some only run to the end of December 2022 and some of the SuO ones have an end date of 12 February. Anyone know what changes are planned for these earlier dates?

331s appearing on Chat Moss working, some Crewe's, and some Stoke's

Crewe sees 331s booked for the first time. Two of the five Crewe diagrams (services interwork between the Styal and Stockport routes) are 331, as is the peak hour Stoke diagram (07:26 Stoke-Picc, 17:18 Picc-Stoke).

I see the only 6-car 331 workings are on the Blackpool - Airport route. I should think quite a few of the 3-car 331 services might become full and standing, since the 2+2 layout has a lot fewer seats than the 3+2 323 or 319.

 

[jonesy3001]

Do you think these changes for the 331s are to cater for when they get the 4 car versions back or is that dead in the water now.

 

[Kite159]

Most of the Northern diagrams have an end date at the May 2023 timetable change. But some only run to the end of December 2022 and some of the SuO ones have an end date of 12 February. Anyone know what changes are planned for these earlier dates?



I see the only 6-car 331 workings are on the Blackpool - Airport route. I should think quite a few of the 3-car 331 services might become full and standing, since the 2+2 layout has a lot fewer seats than the 3+2 323 or 319.

Especially as for Manchester - Crewe you can normally get cheap advances right up to departure for the Northern services which cost less than the any permitted day return.

 

[td97]

But some only run to the end of December 2022 and some of the SuO ones have an end date of 12 February. Anyone know what changes are planned for these earlier dates?

Likely the Salford Central closure until summer 2023.

 

[Greybeard33]

Likely the Salford Central closure until summer 2023.

Yes that figures. The diagrams that end at New Year seem to be the ones with services through Salford Central.

 

[Bantamzen]

As a converse example, the Skipton/Ilkley to Bradford (Forster Square) services going back to 2tph is entirely unnecessary and will only worsen the delays on the chronically unreliable 'Triangle' services.ilkley

Erm, "chronically unreliable"? How so? If anything the cut back to hourly services from Bradford FS to Skipton / Ilkley has caused more issues than the half hourly that was very much the norm for years. Bringing it back to half hourly across the board is not only much more preferable (especially if your services are currently only hourly), but give plenty of flexibility for recover when things do occasionally go wrong.

 

[43055]

Timetable pdf files are now online for the following TOCs on their respective websites:

Avanti West Coast
CrossCountry
Gatwick Express
Grand Central
Great Northern
GWR
LNER
London Northwestern Railway
Northern
Southern
Southeastern
South Western Railway
TfL Elizabeth Line
West Midlands Railway

EMR PDFs are now up.

 

[sjm77]

Wonder if northern are slowly getting rid of the 319s if the 331s are taking over there workings,

Northern will lose the 319s which are being swapped for the ex-West Midland 323s.

 

[Some guy]

Northern will lose the 319s which are being swapped for the ex-West Midland 323s.

Will the 323’s eventually sign the entire Manchester to Preston route. It would be good to see that traction go that far

 

[Bletchleyite]

Will the 323’s eventually sign the entire Manchester to Preston route. It would be good to see that traction go that far

I'm sure I recall reading here that the following swaparound would take place, though it may of course change again as these things do.

1. 6.323 to replace 6.331 on Manchester Airport to Blackpool, providing a seating increase though admittedly at lower comfort as it's 3+2
2. 3-car 331s over to Yorkshire to allow longer trains e.g. around Leeds, as 4 car is often too short and 8 car too long, while East crews don't sign 323s so sending those wouldn't be as easy
3. 4-car 331s over to the West side
4. 319s out and 4-car 331s to replace formerly 4-car 319 services, providing a small capacity boost due to the longer vehicles

 

[Greybeard33]

I'm sure I recall reading here that the following swaparound would take place, though it may of course change again as these things do.

1. 6.323 to replace 6.331 on Manchester Airport to Blackpool, providing a seating increase though admittedly at lower comfort as it's 3+2
2. 3-car 331s over to Yorkshire to allow longer trains e.g. around Leeds, as 4 car is often too short and 8 car too long, while East crews don't sign 323s so sending those wouldn't be as easy
3. 4-car 331s over to the West side
4. 319s out and 4-car 331s to replace formerly 4-car 319 services, providing a small capacity boost due to the longer vehicles

Not this December though. From the diagrams in #1876, Northern is retaining the fleet of 15 319s, with a daily turnout of 12 (albeit some of them on peak only diagrams). They will mainly work the routes out of Liverpool, with 323s and 331/0s working all of the routes out of Piccadilly.

From the 319 thread, WMT is prioritising the 730s to replace the LNR 319s before the WMR 323s destined for Northern. This means the Northern 319s will be the last of the class to remain in passenger service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

From the 319 thread, WMT is prioritising the 730s to replace the LNR 319s before the WMR 323s destined for Northern. This means the Northern 319s will be the last of the class to remain in passenger service.

This does make some sense as several of the WMT 319s are in terrible condition, e.g. no heating, so best wrap up warm if going for a Bletchley starter! I believe the issue is such that it would require the floor to be removed to fix.

I was surprised they survived COVID. i guess they must be cheaper to use than 350/2s, as LNR are running nothing like a full service so there must surely be spare 350s.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

At topical transport questions this morning Huw Merriman in response to a question about Avanti West Coast said the numbers of daily trains will be increasing from 180 to 264 from December timetable change - have they really got that many new drivers signed off ready to go?