DOO on Northern and general discussion on future staffing arrangements

[ANorthernGuard]

so you cant prove the safety case so now you are going onto the performance case for DOO

The PPM figures for the likes of Northern ,ATW , and TPE are currently better than those for FCC or Southern

I would have thought with the frequent number of trains stood in the platform for minutes before the guard opens the doors the operators with a traditional two man operation and guard opening doors would have significantly lower PPM figures ... perhaps not



It does happen sometimes that someone will want a more complicated ticket than you envisaged , or they might get out a card to pay and the card reader wont want to play ball .more often than not I have been a bit delayed getting back to my panel because the advantix has decided to stop cooperating and I have had to mess with it to give the customer their ticket . or it might be busy so getting back through the train takes a little longer than you thought . Most the time if a customer wants a more complicated ticket and I am near a station I will tell them I will be back with them after the station , but we all make mistakes and sometimes dont get back to the panel in the time we would like too . Not going to pretend like it never happens but it isn't a frequent occurrence . Guards dont go out there setting out to make a train late , that just creates more work for us in handling customer complaints and notifying control to let them know what the delay is .

Lets look at another cause of delays at stations , sometimes loading and unloading of a disabled passenger can add a good 7 or 8 minutes delay onto a service with getting the disabled space clear , getting the ramp , setting the ramp up , getting them on and stowing the ramp safely again repeating the process at their destination . Should we stop carrying disabled passengers just because they cost delay minutes and it would be more efficient to leave them behind ? ofc we shouldn't

Sometimes the unit you will get given will make your service delayed 142 vs 150 means less doors which means increased time for passengers to alight and join the train

Anybody that observes passengers trying to get on a train will also know they will only half of the available doors .Currently I have observed many guards who will ask passengers to make use of all of the doors available whereas being confined to a cab would make this more difficult , so the advantages in lowered dwell times by having doors open as soon as the train is stationary would be undone by having passengers taking longer to load onto the train . Stuff like telling people to move down the train so everyone can get on would also not happen if the person watching the boarding of the train was confined to a cab


As for cancellations due to lack of traincrew - nearly all of the cancellations I am seeing at the moment (mainly leeds ,clitheroe and todmorden ) are due to lack of driver , Sometimes a service will be cancelled due to lack of conductor but the unit itself will still have to go somewhere to form a later service or to be out of the way .So the wasted costs in fuel and track access costs are a moot point if that train would have to be somewhere to form another service with another guard later in the day .Surely a cancellation due to lack of driver could actually end up costing a TOC more in cancellation fines because the unit cant be at its destination to form a later service leading to knock on cancellations .


Northern will always suffer from a shortage of drivers because of the class of work that is handled as well as the attractions (be them perceived or real ) of working for other TOC's or the attraction of extra money going to a FOC .Other TOC's or FOC's will happilly take qualified drivers from northern as it saves them money . not helped by the fact that it takes so long for a driver to be fully productive .
Its not even a problem that could be solved by simply offering drivers more money
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


A guard should be in full safety mode every time they are in charge of dispatching their train , that is where the most significant level of risk occurs to passengers on the railway as it is today .

Excellent counter argument there muz379. I gave up responding as it as like banging my head against a brick wall.

 

[muz379]

Well refusing to carry a disabled passenger because it takes too long to load them on to the train would be illegal under the equalities act, allowing the driver to release the door annoys a trade union.



What would help here is if the door formations were consistent and the passengers knew the length of train before it arrived and whether all carriages will be in service. A short formed train may have everyone trying to board the rear door because they were waiting where the rear train would have stopped, had there been one. While if there is an empty rear train the passengers don't know whether they are allowed to board it or not.




Well that only applies on certain routes. If a Manchester-Chester/Marple/Hazel Grove/Sheffield/Huddersfield/Clitheroe etc. service is cancelled then the return working is also cancelled because there's no crew base signing the route at the other end.

Refusing to carry disabled passengers because of the delays would not be illegal as long as alternative arrangements are made for their transport . There must be times when this alternate transport is cheaper and more convinient than loading them on the train . Yet we still carry them as it is the right thing to do . Allowing drivers to release doors is not only annoying unions it also leads to a reduction in safety

As for trains having consistant door layout this would help a but even when the train has come to a stand passengers have the opportunity to make full use of all doors by walking down the train . Something they inevitably have to do once on board anyway to make their way to the empty carriage . And yet cant seem to do outside the train

But how many times does a huddersfield or a clitheroe service run ecs because of lack or guard ?

 

[brompton rail]

As for trains having consistant door layout this would help a but even when the train has come to a stand passengers have the opportunity to make full use of all doors by walking down the train .

Well good luck with that! Sheffield Supertram vehicles are identical, they have two doors at each end of the tram. They stop in the same position at every stop and there are paving markings on the platform to indicate where the doors will be. But still many passengers will spread themselves evenly along the platform.

Sorry but human beings are illogical, some unthinking and many dislike regimentation. That's what makes folks interesting! Oh!, and it ain't gonna change.

 

[muz379]

Well good luck with that! Sheffield Supertram vehicles are identical, they have two doors at each end of the tram. They stop in the same position at every stop and there are paving markings on the platform to indicate where the doors will be. But still many passengers will spread themselves evenly along the platform.

Sorry but human beings are illogical, some unthinking and many dislike regimentation. That's what makes folks interesting! Oh!, and it ain't gonna change.

Oh I know people are so illogical , it always makes me laugh when I am walking to my train to work it and people are running past me to get onto it ,its like the train cant go anywhere till I get to it

there are always people that enter into a light jog as soon as they arrive at the doors of a train station

 

[Moonshot]

Meanwhile back in the real world and the original topic of this thread, a prospectus for 2 new franchises starting in 2016 has been released, a part of which is related to potentially operating trains with drivers in full control of the door operation. If this was a function for which it was absolutely impossible to do, then it wouldnt be on the agenda.......but its not impossible for drivers to carry out this task, so it is on the agenda.

No amount of spouting on here and sabre rattling by Unions is going to change that.....its the reality. As I have said more than once, a good number of drivers have come from guarding roles - the industry will need more drivers if the expected increase in the number of services is realised.

 

[Harpers Tate]

I tend to "forgive" SuperTram passengers at many stops because the shelter - a natural place for people to congregate - is placed in the middle of the platform, away from the door positions.

 

[wigwamman]

It would not be impossible to have driverless trains included in the new prospectus, but it would cost the earth.

As for going DOO on the Northern network, how soon is now ?
Ok some routes like Chat Moss may be less problematic to convert, but to move wholesale across the Network would also cost the earth. There is no way any franchisee could hope to see a return on the investment in 10 years.

I think 2 possibly 3 routes may be introduced over the course of the next franchise, but sadly this will see some jobs lost and not every Guard will have the ability to pass out as a Driver.

 

[Moonshot]

It would not be impossible to have driverless trains included in the new prospectus, but it would cost the earth.

As for going DOO on the Northern network, how soon is now ?
Ok some routes like Chat Moss may be less problematic to convert, but to move wholesale across the Network would also cost the earth. There is no way any franchisee could hope to see a return on the investment in 10 years.

I think 2 possibly 3 routes may be introduced over the course of the next franchise, but sadly this will see some jobs lost and not every Guard will have the ability to pass out as a Driver.

If by some miracle of technology driverless trains were intoduced on the entire Northern Network, do you think passengers would actually ride a train?

 

[wigwamman]

Why wouldn't they ?

 

[Moonshot]

Why wouldn't they ?

You tell me !!!

 

[wigwamman]

Its you that's asking the question.

 

[Moonshot]

Its you that's asking the question.

So you think that passengers would accept getting on a train that could do a max of 100 mph without a driver?

 

[wigwamman]

Why would all the network need to be 100 mph, it isn't now.

The Dubai metro has no problems attracting passengers and that runs at around 90 kph I think.

 

[Moonshot]

Why would all the network need to be 100 mph, it isn't now.

The Dubai metro has no problems attracting passengers and that runs at around 90 kph I think.

Im sorry but there is a hell of a difference between a closed metro system and a UK network which has trains whizzing about at all speeds!! LOL!!

 

[wigwamman]

I agree, but it was you that started talking about things not being impossible.

If money was no object, Drivers could be got rid of as well.

 

[Moonshot]

I agree, but it was you that started talking about things not being impossible.

If money was no object, Drivers could be got rid of as well.

Makes you wonder why passenger aircraft dont have pilots nowadays ....when the technology exists already.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Meanwhile back in reality and leading on from the prospectus.....is it possible to drive a train from station A to station B without a driver - NO

Is it possible to drive a train from station A to station B without a guard - YES.

Which at its simplest is logic.

So the only real question that has to be addressed is to remove the obstacles that at the moment prevents a train actually getting from station A to station B without a guard.....which has already been achieved on some parts of the network

 

[wigwamman]

I'm glad were back to reality, after talking about things which aren't impossible.

In reality the cost of getting the Northern network fully DOO would be exhorbitant, however I agree a few routes will more than likely be converted.

It will be a very long time before we see a full network of either DOO or driverless trains.

 

[SqUaShIe P]

In reality the cost of getting the Northern network fully DOO would be exhorbitant, however I agree a few routes will more than likely be converted.

Firstly, Im not a fan of DOO so personally, I hope it doesn't spread to the North. I've heard a lot of people talking about this, Most people say it wouldn't happen because the cost of fitting DOO mirrors or monitors or fitting CD/RA indicators to every station would be too expensive, But I think they could, and it would be cheaper to fit DOO cameras (like what class 377s and 379s have) to the corner of each carriage, stick a monitor or two in each cab, probably have to move the door controls on some units but I don't think it would cost as much as what some people are saying.
Still, I hope it doesn't happen.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

A guard should be in full safety mode every time they are in charge of dispatching their train , that is where the most significant level of risk occurs to passengers on the railway as it is today .

Would the matter of what the court case decided in the matter of the responsibilities of the train staff and the subsequent custodial sentence that was handed down in the case of the death of the 16 year old Georgia Varley at James Street station, be a matter that you had in mind when you wrote that statement ?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Would the matter of what the court case decided in the matter of the responsibilities of the train staff and the subsequent custodial sentence that was handed down in the case of the death of the 16 year old Georgia Varley at James Street station, be a matter that you had in mind when you wrote that statement ?

I think Paul any guard worth his/her salt should have that horrible incident ingrained in the back of their mind.

 

[Stats]

is it possible to drive a train from station A to station B without a driver - NO

I must have imaged all the journeys on the DLR I have taken that have got me from station A to station B without a driver. You better tell Thameslink, Crossrail, London Underground and the DLR that it's not possible to operate in Automatic Train Operation mode.

 

[Tomnick]

The DLR is different to most railways though, with much less chance of external factors affecting the safety of the line - and even then, each train needs to carry someone competent to drive it manually if necessary. ATO isn't 'driverless' either, at least not yet - it might be automatic, but a driver is still required to supervise its operation. In both cases, a manual check is required to ensure that it's safe to depart - closer to GOO than DOO on the DLR perhaps .

 

[Class 170101]

DLR still occasionally has accidents I remember one that was on the news not long after the line opened - a collision between two P stock trains at North Quay delta junction as I recall.

 

[A-driver]

Before this gets into yet another tedious driverless trains debate let's get some facts in here...

Nowhere in the world has any plans to get driverless trains on the mainline. ATO is certainly in use and will be further rolled out for high intensity sections of line but that is a world away from driverless operation

Countries like japan and France have had chances with new lines and rolling stock to go driverless but it has never been considered as it benifits no one. It's no cheaper generally, it's less safe, away from busy sections like the thameslink core trains won't need to run that close together (you are never going to need trains running bumper to bumper up the ECML like you would see cars doing on the M1).

Technology is and will continue to aid the driver and the job will change (not get easier or less needed, just change) but there are no intentions to get rid of drivers. It's a myth that we are so 'expensive'. Pay rises which people get so worked up about generally benifits the toc more than the drivers as we never get pay rises without giving significant work increases or conditions in return.

Metro systems are different and purpose built systems can be run driverless but they are almost incomparable to a mainline route/ network. I have serious doubt weather driverless tubes will get off the ground as the system isn't designed for it.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

As far as I can see, there's only two reasons the "should Northern go DOO on some routes?' question is being asked:

Firstly, there's the supposed cost saving. Replacing guards with conductors/customer service assistants on a lower grade would theoretically save (disclaimer: this is largely guesswork!) £10k per employee per year at the most. In order to make this happen, platform-end mirrors/CCTV+screens will be needed at every platform the services will serve (and am I right in assuming that mirrors no longer meet standards for new installations?).

Secondly, 319s and as far as I am aware the 321/322s on the West side are at the present time fitted for DOO (cab door controls etc.) but in the case of the Leeds-based units operate with guards anyway, and have had extra panels fitted for door operation by a guard. though the 319s will need a bit of work in order to switch to guard operation efficiently (extra door control panels at some or all vestibules). Essentially it will (in the short term) come down to the relative cost/benefit of making the route suitable for DOO or making the 319s suitable for a guard to operate the doors without having to get back to the rear cab at every stop.

I do believe that in the short-term, switching to DOO is a false economy. The DfT may well use the prospect of lower fares to gain support for a switch to DOO, but the majority of travellers won't fall for that. We all know fares are only going one way regardless of whether guards are on board. I also think that the majority of Northern passengers would rather keep guards, and would hopefully be more forthright in making their feelings known than the LOROL passengers were. There may be rivalries between various cities up here, but when it matters we look out for each other.

 

[northwichcat]

What is happening with the Stoke-On-Trent to Manchester Piccadilly stopper service?

I have read previously there was talk of transferring this service to London Midland and extending to Birmingham

There's no mention of that in this document but it could be done when the next LM franchise is let.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As for going DOO on the Northern network, how soon is now ?
Ok some routes like Chat Moss may be less problematic to convert, but to move wholesale across the Network would also cost the earth. There is no way any franchisee could hope to see a return on the investment in 10 years.

I think 2 possibly 3 routes may be introduced over the course of the next franchise, but sadly this will see some jobs lost and not every Guard will have the ability to pass out as a Driver.

The bidders are to be asked to identify suitable electric routes to covert to DOO.

How many guard roles do Northern typically recruit over the course of a year?

How many extra services are likely to be introduced? Manchester Airport-Blackpool will become a new Northern route while TPE will introduce other new services, so the TPE staff may not transfer to Northern with the route. Some lines are set to get weekday service enhancements. One noticeable thing in the consultation is the number of weekend services is set to increase on lines where it can be justified.

As there'll only be a limited number of routes suitable for DOO conversion I think the number of new services will exceed the number of services converted to DOO.

 

[wigwamman]

Excellent points JC, at our depot, the compliment is 56, in the last year I would say 10 new Guards have been employed, which is turnover of roughly 20%.

I suppose the trade off will be something like no redundancy and maybe allow the Drivers to release doors on non DOO routes as a guarantee no jobs are done away with.

 

[WatcherZero]

Mod Note: This post originated from this thread.

To be honest Im a little saddened by this thread, 20 pages of discussion on this consultation paper and around 19 of them exclusively on the DOO side. The rest of the content is barely getting a mention.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

To be honest Im a little saddened by this thread, 20 pages of discussion on this consultation paper and around 19 of them exclusively on the DOO side. The rest of the content is barely getting a mention.

Ahhhh Yes but its the future! Even though most passengers would want a guard on every train (Up North anyway) and all the jobs that could be lost and in a serious incident lives. But hey why get in the way of progress! Its only peoples livelihoods at stake so no problem there then.

 

[Moonshot]

Ahhhh Yes but its the future! Even though most passengers would want a guard on every train (Up North anyway) and all the jobs that could be lost and in a serious incident lives. But hey why get in the way of progress! Its only peoples livelihoods at stake so no problem there then.

I ve no problem if passengers want a guard on a train - the research from Passenger Focus ( who are increasingly getting a seat at the bigger table ) indicates this. Bear in mind that 75% of the total income of the industry is provided by the fare box. However passengers will need to understand that increases in fare prices which are broadly in line with inflation may not cover all their aspirations if they are not prepared to pay for it.