End of the line for return rail tickets

[Bletchleyite]

Amersham or one of those stations in that area.

Ah. One of the few.

I don't see why it wouldn't sell you two singles, to be honest. Just being lazy no doubt.

Two levels of more expensive tickets than you can get now.....

Evidence that they will be more expensive? With LNER's trial they mostly are not.

Why anybody thinks this sham is necessary or a good plan I have absolutely no idea.

Because it simplifies online sales and allows for more complex journeys at a more reasonable price while only disadvantaging very few people.

 

[raveon]

Any thoughts on when this change is likely to be implemented. Q3 / Q4 this year?

 

[Kilopylae]

Theres no requiremnet to book both legs on the way out if you 're not sure when you're returning.

It is quite strange behaviour to travel long distance without a plan for how you're going to get home. When planning a long-distance trip, you get everything sorted out, and if you need flexibility, you grit your teeth and pay for it.

That psychology isn't going to change just because LNER's pricing department decides to stick its fingers in its ears and scream 'la la la' about how people talk about and imagine fares!

The chances of an Advance ticket being available on the day that would cost less in sum than the Off Peak Return level are very slim, yes absolutely. Also many trains, especially those to and from Edinburgh, will not have any Advance availability on the day at all. But then that's the predictable outcome generally with this.

Quite!

Neither is it feasible to make sure that (A-B) + (B-C) = (A-C) in all cases, so that split ticketing becomes irrelevant.

Why not?

I am unconvinced that single leg pricing has been the significant factor there. PAYG around London is much easier than having to buy a ticket in advance, and Advances have sometimes been cheaper than walk-up ticket. But you could do both of those things without needing to have single leg pricing.

Indeed. I think many Londoners just trust 'the system' to calculate their fares for them and would be pleasantly surprised if it gave them a discount for returning along the same route as they set out.

Highly unlikely contactless cards would be viable for long distance journeys - you’d need a “maximum fare” in case someone doesn’t tap out, so you’d put that at £185 just in case someone doesn’t tap out on a Manchester - Stockport journey, to cover anyone going to London?

ITSO might work in the Netherlands etc but they’re a 1/6 the size of our country and fares don’t tend to cost the Earth.

Couldn't we just allow people to load Advance tickets onto their cards?

We are moving in the other direction - for whatever reason, the powers that be seem to have decided that a national ITSO card is so 2010s, and think that scanning PDFs of Aztec codes is somehow modern and sensible. But that isn't because ITSO cards force PAYGO.

Many won't let you out to buy a coffee, and if they do they won't let you back in.

Aside from one situation in extremis at Hereford where they insisted rail replacement coaches were just about to turn up, I have only ever even heard of this happening at Clapham Jn; certainly it's not 'many' gatelines who refuse to let interchange passengers access station facilities.

Your post complely ignores all those customers already buying two singles to make a return journey on Advance Tickets.

Long-distance journeys planned in advance are a different situation to local spontaneous journeys. No one, or very few people, would buy an Advance single for (say) an evening out in Plymouth returning to Exeter at a time which isn't pre-planned.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Oh get real. Do you really think they are going to start selling Single tickets at half the price? Like hell they will.

Yes, I do think that. Because it's broadly what the reports are saying - plus it makes sense economically and in terms of attracting more passengers while remaining revenue neutral

And we need to change the whole system to suit 1% of journeys?

It's probably a lot more than 1% of journeys that are not simple out-and back journeys once you take account of suppressed demand. Right now, it's pretty much impossible to make any journey that isn't a simple return journey by rail without paying uneconomic fares (outside Oyster and areas covered by metro-type travelcards). Therefore, anyone who wants to make that kind of journey is probably not going to choose the train. The proposed change will make the train a viable choice for people who need to make single/triangular/other round-trip type journeys.

I live in London where, thanks to the Oyster card system, essentially all fares are single fares. And I find I'm constantly travelling out somewhere, meeting a friend, walking somewhere/etc. and then either going onto somewhere else, or returning home from a different station. Why shouldn't I be able to do that on national rail too?

 

[Richardr]

Because they are a very small group you'd not need much of an uplift on the singles to mean you've done the change on a revenue neutral basis, though.

If for instance your period return is £15 and your day return £10 (in the SE it's usually that sort of proportion), and 10% of passengers use the period return it can be worked out thus:

For 10 passengers, one uses a period return and nine use day returns, your revenue is:

15 + (9 * 10) = £105

So if you want to get the same revenue from those same people you're talking about a single fare of £5.25, or a return (two singles) of £10.50. That increase just isn't going to put anyone off.

(Obviously the real formula is more complex than that, but it should give an idea of what sums are involved - plus I suspect for MKC to London, for instance, the number using period returns are even lower than 10% - plus add in that removing period returns will reduce fraud from people using them as "season tickets"...)

I realize you are giving a simple example of a revenue neutral model and not suggesting that is necessarily what will happen, but in your example it will be described as "government forces train fares rise for 90% of passengers".

 

[Cdd89]

it'd go something like:

"Return to X please"
"We don't do returns any more, but I can sell you two singles. When are you coming back?"
"Oh, that's a bit weird. OK, then, I'm coming back today"
"That'll be <too much>*"
"OK, cheers" <taps card>
<hands over two singles, functionally identical to a day return>

I think it’d go more like the above, to be honest. Same as online booking systems which will still have a return box which works like that.


This is hugely overdue and will bring in more money for the railway. As an example I often take one way journeys between Oxford and London because I frequently get a lift in one direction. As singles are not cost effective, I buy singles (in the form of a carnet) from the Oxford Tube bus company for £8 each. And quite often I don’t get the lift back, so the railway loses out on a return. That is money I would gladly give to the railway to the tune of about 15 journeys a year.

 

[Kilopylae]

I think it’d go more like the above, to be honest.


This is hugely overdue and will bring in more money for the railway. As an example I often take one way journeys between Oxford and London because I frequently get a lift in one direction. As singles are not cost effective, I buy singles (in the form of a carnet) from the Oxford Tube bus company for £8 each. And quite often I don’t get the lift back, so the railway loses out on a return. That is money I would gladly give to the railway to the tune of about 15 journeys a year.

If you hold a Railcard, singles on that route are so cheap in Advance (£3.55), that if you're able to plan ahead, you might genuinely be better off buying Advances for every time you might travel and just letting them go to waste when you do get a lift. The Oxford Tube is also great value for money, of course. One is spoilt for choice doing Oxford/London.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Any thoughts on when this change is likely to be implemented. Q3 / Q4 this year?

I'd be surprised if it was that quick. Perhaps the March (I think they moved it to then?) fares change next year?

 

[Hadders]

I suspect for MKC to London, for instance, the number using period returns are even lower than 10%

Really? What about people going away for the weekend, or travelling to the airport? I see lots of people travelling with cases suggesting they’re not making day returns.

 

[CdBrux]

On what planet is it "simpler" force people into faffing about buying two (more expensive) tickets instead of one?? As for possibly needed to wait until you get back to the station to buy the return leg, utter unacceptable. Why do we have a DfT intent on making the railway as unattractive as possible? The more I think about this the more angry it make me. It's disgusting.

Couple good things from the top of my head:
1. Very easy to understand that a return = 2* single. Buy both tickets in same transaction
2. The person buying the single ticket and paying almost the price of the return doesn't feel ripped off

 

[Bletchleyite]

Really? What about people going away for the weekend

To London? Can't think there'd be many. It's very much a day trip from London, not a weekend away. Some I'm sure do, but with the price of London hotels and late last train back it'll be very rare.

To longer distance destinations via London, yes, but you aren't necessarily going to split to do that, it's very, very rare for it to be cheaper with walk-up period fares.

or travelling to the airport?

What, Heathrow? Cheapest way to do that is an outboundary Travelcard on the outward and return days, by quite a significant margin, as it avoids the "Heathrow tax" you pay with contactless. There's no peak period return. For Gatwick you want a through ticket, but Gatwick is a faff to get to from MK so not that many will do it. The vast majority of MK <-> airports traffic goes by taxi or car.

I see lots of people travelling with cases suggesting they’re not making day returns.

There'll be some but it's nowhere near the majority. I'd stick with it being about 10%.

 

[yorksrob]

This is the key for me.
Advance fares are fine if that’s what you want to buy but they are too unpredictable.
Sometimes they’re available sometimes they’re not.
Sometimes the lowest X tiers are rested from sale.
Sometimes an advance is £1 below a flexible fare.
It’s only the (regulated) flexible fare which stops the advance fares from being priced even higher.
Some TOCs would love to sell only advance or anytime fares if they could.
We used to have a turn up and go railway. Surely that’s one of its key benefits. Now we have journeys of 15-30 mins on an advance.
It would be great if advances were like the shuttle advances on west coast of old where you booked an afternoon or a morning journey in a time frame with a little flexibility.
Even better if they brought back book with confidence.

Exactly.

Unfortunately the modern railway is designed for the convenience of the railway industry and the Treasury, not the passengers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Exactly.

Unfortunately the modern railway is designed for the convenience of the railway industry and the Treasury, not the passengers.

I just don't understand this. How is singles being half the return not for the convenience of the passenger?

 

[yorksrob]

I just don't understand this. How is singles being half the return not for the convenience of the passenger?

It's why everything has to be advanced purchase to get a reasonable fare (with honourable exceptions, such as LNWR).

Like @bakerstreet I lament the death of the walk-up railway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's why everything has to be advanced purchase to get a reasonable fare (with honourable exceptions, such as LNWR).

Like @bakerstreet I lament the death of the walk-up railway.

What death of the walk-up railway? I mostly travel on walk-up fares.

Rail travel has got more expensive, yes, but that's generally.

 

[AlterEgo]

Really? What about people going away for the weekend, or travelling to the airport? I see lots of people travelling with cases suggesting they’re not making day returns.

MKC to London, yes, probably under 10% I’d reckon. There’s a vast amount of commuter traffic drowning out those people with cases heading further afield.

 

[DC1989]

It's a great idea, how on earth can anyone say that having to buy returns is better?

Of course, the devil will be in the detail, and if all single fares double then I'll be right there with the complainers.

The other day I was visiting a friend and was planning to come back later that evening, of course due to how the tickets are currently it was something like £15 for a single or £20 for anytime same day return. Why wouldn't you take the return ? Anyway we had one too many shandies and I stayed over, then had to get another single the next day for £15 again. Completely my fault, not the railways - but if the option was a £10 single then I would have just got that for both journeys instead of paying for a journey I didn't make

 

[Bletchleyite]

MKC to London, yes, probably under 10% I’d reckon. There’s a vast amount of commuter traffic drowning out those people with cases heading further afield.

And most leisure travel is day tripping too.

 

[Hadders]

It's a great idea, how on earth can anyone say that having to buy returns is better?

Of course, the devil will be in the detail, and if all single fares double then I'll be right there with the complainers.

The other day I was visiting a friend and was planning to come back later that evening, of course due to how the tickets are currently it was something like £15 for a single or £20 for anytime same day return. Why wouldn't you take the return ? Anyway we had one too many shandies and I stayed over, then had to get another single the next day for £15 again. Completely my fault, not the railways - but if the option was a £10 single then I would have just got that for both journeys instead of paying for a journey I didn't make

You’re missing the point. See my posts upthread on London to Manchester and Derby to Sheffield and tell me what the new fares will be.

 

[yorksrob]

What death of the walk-up railway? I mostly travel on walk-up fares.

Rail travel has got more expensive, yes, but that's generally.

Ok, I still use them for short and very long, rambling journeys. Anything short and inbetween AP is usually a must.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You’re missing the point. See my posts upthread on London to Manchester and Derby to Sheffield and tell me what the new fares will be.

If LNER are right that going to 50% actually grew revenue (forget where I read that, sorry, thought it was on Twitter but I can't now find it), then London to Manchester Off Peak Single will be £49.10 (round up from £49.05 as fares are priced in 10p increments), i.e. half the current Off Peak Return which will itself be removed.

It might be a little bit higher. It won't be what the single currently is.

 

[sheff1]

What to do with places like Bedford and Milton Keynes where there's both a period and a day return is an interesting question. I suspect in both these cases sales of the period returns are absolutely tiny, and so the singles would be based on the day returns or very, very close to them. There are relatively few flows where you get both, and they are almost all journeys of about 50 miles, where day trips are by far the most common thing people do. The more common case is that journeys under 50 miles only have a day return, and journeys over 50 miles only have a period return.

We keep being told this, but looking at fares from Sheffield to the nearest 4 major cities Leeds, Nottingham, Derby & Manchester (all of which are ~35 miles away), there are period and day returns in all cases. Is the situation so much different in other parts of the country ?

And yet, strangely, when people make comparisons of pricing on railways they never seem to mention how Australian railways are priced - it's always France and Germany.

Not strange at all when you consider how many more UK-based people will have travelled by rail in France and Germany as compared to Australia.

 

[DailyCommuter]

You’re missing the point. See my posts upthread on London to Manchester and Derby to Sheffield and tell me what the new fares will be.

We don't know what those TOCs will do yet, but when single leg pricing for Contactless was introduced between Reading and Paddington, the Peak is priced at half the Anytime Day Return and Off-Peak is half the Off-Peak Day Return.

2 x Off-Peak Contactless is therefore cheaper than the Off-Peak Return (period return), presumably because the majority of off-peak travel is day return rather than period return, so it's been priced accordingly.

 

[Starmill]

We don't know what those TOCs will do yet, but when single leg pricing for Contactless was introduced between Reading and Paddington, the Peak is priced at half the Anytime Day Return and Off-Peak is half the Off-Peak Day Return.

That has been the case in most of the previous expansions of contactless pay as you go that have been done. It may be helpful for it to be thought of more as as "you're getting there system that already exists but widened" than "how can that system be adapted to fit the requirements that already exist?". It's likely that all dedicated tickets will be withdrawn over the next few years within the expanded pay as you go area, mainly Avanti West Coast only, Southern only and London Northwestern Railway only. LNER only would be likely to stay if you can't use pay as you go on LNER.

 

[Sm5]

Ive wasted severals of return tickets over the years, where plans changed and other routings were needed.

i dont see an issue with ending Returns, unless its all about doubling singles revenue… if thats the case its going to make some travel extremely cost prohibitive.

i’m not opposed to paying by the mile fares either, indeed to me thats the fairest way of travel. If some routes are subsidized, imo that subsidy should be showed by the mile on the ticket, so the passenger see’s how much is is paying vs what it actually should cost.

paying by the mile, negates return tickets and makes it simple.

 

[Hadders]

i’m not opposed to paying by the mile fares either, indeed to me thats the fairest way of travel. If some routes are subsidized, imo that subsidy should be showed by the mile on the ticket, so the passenger see’s how much is is paying vs what it actually should cost.

It would be interesting if you could start a thread in Speculative Ideas. We might have a few questions on the practicalities of it though

 

[GoneSouth]

We don't know what those TOCs will do yet, but when single leg pricing for Contactless was introduced between Reading and Paddington, the Peak is priced at half the Anytime Day Return and Off-Peak is half the Off-Peak Day Return.

2 x Off-Peak Contactless is therefore cheaper than the Off-Peak Return (period return), presumably because the majority of off-peak travel is day return rather than period return, so it's been priced accordingly.

Seems fair, let’s hope common sense prevails and this is the norm.

 

[ohgoditsjames]

Most European countries use single leg pricing and it's a much simpler way for normal passengers to understand the cost of their journeys.

Many European countries don't cost an arm and a leg for a ticket like it does here.

 

[AlterEgo]

Many European countries don't cost an arm and a leg for a ticket like it does here.

But we are talking about fare structure here, not the actual fares.

 

[ohgoditsjames]

But we are talking about fare structure here, not the actual fares.

But we all know this new fair structure is just a stealth tactic to rip people off even more.