Southern Timetable Change September 2022

[Class 466]

Oh Okay that's good. Not sure why but I've always thought that the /3s have their first class removed?

It’s only at one end. Southern would do well to follow Southeastern and just Bin off First Class entirely in the near future.

 

[WizCastro197]

It’s only at one end. Southern would do well to follow Southeastern and just Bin off First Class entirely in the near future.

You are right. Although rather than binning it they could take the chance to improve it. Its such a shame that they didn't in that 377/4 light refurbishment. And keep charging around 10 pounds extra for a antimacassar and charging port.

Will the Southern Services from BTN-VIC be reinstated some point this year or next? It's such a pain to reach Brighton without it.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The VIC-Dorking/Horshams from September are a mixture of 5/8/10 cars

5 cars will be interesting with 2tph effectively binned off from the route.

It’s only at one end. Southern would do well to follow Southeastern and just Bin off First Class entirely in the near future.

I have to say the 171s have a very pleasant first class, and I’ve enjoyed a couple of really comfortable trips to Uckfield on them in 2+1 spaciousness… reclining seat and all. Shows the 377s up.

 

[Class 466]

5 cars will be interesting with 2tph effectively binned off from the route.

I have to say the 171s have a very pleasant first class, and I’ve enjoyed a couple of really comfortable trips to Uckfield on them in 2+1 spaciousness… reclining seat and all. Shows the 377s up.

It's where I always go on the Marshlink in de-class- will be interesting to see what happens with one of the FC compartments once they're re-formed.

 

[WizCastro197]

I have to say the 171s have a very pleasant first class, and I’ve enjoyed a couple of really comfortable trips to Uckfield on them in 2+1 spaciousness… reclining seat and all. Shows the 377s up.

Isn't it just the same as standard on a 171?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Isn't it just the same as standard on a 171?

It’s not. It has reclining seats in 2+1 formation, larger tables, more legroom. It’s the same pretty much as CrossCountry 170 First Class.

 

[30907]

Why couldn't they have had the increased Norwood services stop at New Cross Gate instead.

Because that wouldn't provide the connection to ECR off Overground - and they'd probably have to stop on the Fasts.

 

[WizCastro197]

It’s not. It has reclining seats in 2+1 formation, larger tables, more legroom. It’s the same pretty much as CrossCountry 170 First Class.

I stand corrected. Must've been nice then!

 

[PGAT]

Will the Southern Services from BTN-VIC be reinstated some point this year or next? It's such a pain to reach Brighton without it.

I hope they do come back, as well as the 4tph to Sutton via Norbury, but unfortunately Southern most likely will not bring them back.

 

[physics34]

I wouldn't count on it. There are five cars out on their own at the moment. History seems to be repeating itself. The recession in the 1990s binned off the Selhurst EPBs. Soon after there were single 4VEPs running peak time metro services, e.g. the 08:09 East Croydon to London Bridge via Streatham. There were people standing in the first class compartments!

But theres govt stupidity going on here. The 379 cascade wouldve solved this... but that looks like its shelved due to the presumed leasing cost squabble between the owners and the DfT.

You are right. Although rather than binning it they could take the chance to improve it. Its such a shame that they didn't in that 377/4 light refurbishment. And keep charging around 10 pounds extra for a antimacassar and charging port.

Will the Southern Services from BTN-VIC be reinstated some point this year or next? It's such a pain to reach Brighton without it.

Definately. There is call for first class. Someones mentioned the 171s, and that set up is surely the way to go. Unfortunately GTR/DfT are more concerned about ease of stock utilisation than they are of passenger comfort. The 377s are all in a common pool so one day a unit will be on epsom downs and the next itll be on a vic to southampton. More thought and detail is needed... but that costs money.

 

[nw1]

Interesting Idea though. Yes Commutes to Victoria and Clapham are at least 25-30 from selhurst on a stopping service.

Interesting to read that. I was just looking at the old 1982 CWN this morning (to try and find 4-car peak formations in response to the 1990s comment above; there was one from LBG to Wimbledon just after 1700) and note that there was a half-hourly service from VIC to East Croydon (stoppers presumably, certainly EPB-operated) which did the whole journey in 25 mins, so presumably VIC-Selhurst was done in about 22, and Clapham-Selhurst perhaps in 15 or 16? So since the early 80s journey times appear to have slowed.

 

[WizCastro197]

Interesting to read that. I was just looking at the old 1982 CWN this morning (to try and find 4-car peak formations in response to the 1990s comment above; there was one from LBG to Wimbledon just after 1700) and note that there was a half-hourly service from VIC to East Croydon (stoppers presumably, certainly EPB-operated) which did the whole journey in 25 mins, so presumably VIC-Selhurst was done in about 22, and Clapham-Selhurst perhaps in 15 or 16? So since the early 80s journey times appear to have slowed.

They must’ve or either the timetabling nowadays is slightly strange
Between CLJ-VIC it’s take 4-5 mins but the timetable leaves a good 8-10 minutes between them although the trains can complete it in half the time

Which leaves many trains (according to timetable) arriving early than planned

Probably adds a few minutes on to the stopping service

How long does the service take to get from Clapham to Victoria? In the 1980s?

But theres govt stupidity going on here. The 379 cascade wouldve solved this... but that looks like its shelved due to the presumed leasing cost squabble between the owners and the DfT.


Definately. There is call for first class. Someones mentioned the 171s, and that set up is surely the way to go. Unfortunately GTR/DfT are more concerned about ease of stock utilisation than they are of passenger comfort. The 377s are all in a common pool so one day a unit will be on epsom downs and the next itll be on a vic to southampton. More thought and detail is needed... but that costs money.

As you said, All in a common pool. One service may not need a great first class like Epsom downs- Vic but the next day that Sam train may need a good one from. 2hr plus Southampton- Victoria

Yes it’s costs money but it’s sad that they aren’t commîted to ensuring more people return to the railways with better trains with newer technology espeicially in the pandemic recovery period.

 

[physics34]

They must’ve or either the timetabling nowadays is slightly strange
Between CLJ-VIC it’s take 4-5 mins but the timetable leaves a good 8-10 minutes between them although the trains can complete it in half the time

Which leaves many trains (according to timetable) arriving early than planned

Probably adds a few minutes on to the stopping service

How long does the service take to get from Clapham to Victoria? In the 1980s?


As you said, All in a common pool. One service may not need a great first class like Epsom downs- Vic but the next day that Sam train may need a good one from. 2hr plus Southampton- Victoria

Yes it’s costs money but it’s sad that they aren’t commîted to ensuring more people return to the railways with better trains with newer technology espeicially in the pandemic recovery period.

Certainly the need to entice people back onto the railway. Luxury is one of those ways. Id even experiment with the return of the buffet car on the BML.

 

[WizCastro197]

Just checked on RTT as that is what people have said shows the new timetable. The Sunday Portsmouth Services are being retained but I can't see any Southamptons?
Through Redhill

Sunday service . Trains through Cambridge? From BTN and Trains don't extend to Bedford or Peterborough instead terminate at Blackfriars

 

[Minstral25]

Just checked on RTT as that is what people have said shows the new timetable. The Sunday Portsmouth Services are being retained but I can't see any Southamptons?
Through Redhill

Sunday service . Trains through Cambridge? From BTN and Trains don't extend to Bedford or Peterborough instead terminate at Blackfriars

Southampton doesn't have Victoria services on a Sunday. On Sunday Arun Valley services are reduced to 1 per hour and they split Bognor/Portsmouth and add call at Redhill to cover for Reigate service becoming hourly.

Peterborough to Horsham services do not run on a Sunday, so the Bedford to Gatwick's pick up the Merstham/Coulsdon South calls but lose their calls at Earlswood/Salfords and an hourly Horsham to London Bridge service running in the calling pattern of the Peterborough services but with opposite swap to Bedford's meaning Earlswood/Salfords get hourly service only. To bring Redhill back up to 4 Thameslinks per hour the hourly Brighton to Cambridge service was supposed to call at Redhill - although this seems to have been dropped recently.

This has been the same since 2018 - except you could probably count on one hand the number of weekends a full service has operated since 2018. Every weekend engineering works have forced changes mostly with Redhill route having a very unsatisfactory service as it is always seems to be the last route GTR try to find trains for when doing engineering timetables.

 

[WizCastro197]

Southampton doesn't have Victoria services on a Sunday. On Sunday Arun Valley services are reduced to 1 per hour and they split Bognor/Portsmouth and add call at Redhill to cover for Reigate service becoming hourly.

Peterborough to Horsham services do not run on a Sunday, so the Bedford to Gatwick's pick up the Merstham/Coulsdon South calls but lose their calls at Earlswood/Salfords and an hourly Horsham to London Bridge service running in the calling pattern of the Peterborough services but with opposite swap to Bedford's meaning Earlswood/Salfords get hourly service only. To bring Redhill back up to 4 Thameslinks per hour the hourly Brighton to Cambridge service was supposed to call at Redhill - although this seems to have been dropped recently.

This has been the same since 2018 - except you could probably count on one hand the number of weekends a full service has operated since 2018. Every weekend engineering works have forced changes mostly with Redhill route having a very unsatisfactory service as it is always seems to be the last route GTR try to find trains for when doing engineering timetables.

Okay Thanks for helping

Real time Trains did say one to Cambridge at some random time I can't recall

 

[BrianB]

Okay Thanks for helping

Real time Trains did say one to Cambridge at some random time I can't recall

Why dont you look at the actual timetables hosted on the Southern website, they will answer all your questions https://www.southernrailway.com/travel-information/plan-your-journey/timetables

 

[PGAT]

Interesting to read that. I was just looking at the old 1982 CWN this morning (to try and find 4-car peak formations in response to the 1990s comment above; there was one from LBG to Wimbledon just after 1700) and note that there was a half-hourly service from VIC to East Croydon (stoppers presumably, certainly EPB-operated) which did the whole journey in 25 mins, so presumably VIC-Selhurst was done in about 22, and Clapham-Selhurst perhaps in 15 or 16? So since the early 80s journey times appear to have slowed.

Those trains may not have stopped at Wandsworth Common or Battersea Park, because there aren’t really any other ways to pick up slack on the 28 min journey time from VIC to SRS.

. I've seen before during that time where we had 40 degrees, All eastbourne trains stopped at Selhurst as well.

I believe when they don’t run the usual trains from London Bridge to East Croydon they always stop a fast train at Selhurst. This is usually why when the Caterham train is cancelled the Reigate train 3 minutes after stops and same in the other direction. Or when there are engineering works between the 2 stations they stop every Ore and Littlehampton service on the day. I don’t get why they can’t do this all the time, because in previous timetables there were 6 morning peak trains (0609,0614,0708,0738,0808,0838) all stopping at Selhurst and 3 in the evening (1706,1806,1906) all going to EGR.

 

[Bikeman78]

Presumably these were declassified?

Interesting, I lost touch with the Central Division in the very late 80s and early 90s, so didn't realise that the EPBs went earlier than on the South Eastern. I think this was when the 456s came in, but presumably there weren't enough to make up the shortfall.

Yes First Class was declassified. The 0818 East Croydon to Victoria was also VEP stock, I think that was always a pair though. By the late 1990s there were lots of VEPs on peak time metro trains.

The 4EPBs finished at Selhurst in May 1992, replaced by class 319s. The 34 2EPBs lasted until May 1993, replaced by the 456s and service cutbacks. Most of them moved to South Eastern replacing unrefurbished units.

 

[Southern Dvr]

Yes First Class was declassified. The 0818 East Croydon to Victoria was also VEP stock, I think that was always a pair though. By the late 1990s there were lots of VEPs on peak time metro trains.

The 4EPBs finished at Selhurst in May 1992, replaced by class 319s. The 34 2EPBs lasted until May 1993, replaced by the 456s and service cutbacks. Most of them moved to South Eastern replacing unrefurbished units.

The amount of Metro VEP workings is what finally led to the VOPs being created.

 

[nw1]

The amount of Metro VEP workings is what finally led to the VOPs being created.

VOPs - I remember them as a concept but as I said, I rarely visited the "Central Division" in the 1990s so don't think I ever saw one. I think I travelled on a COP though around 2003, which fulfilled a similar role on the Coastway.

There were also a few metro CIGs and VEPs in 1982, according to the CWN I have, working early peak or shoulder-peak services (e.g. 1542 LBG-LBG circular 4VEP; or 1714 Victoria to Coulsdon North VEP/CIG), but these were presumably for operational convenience. They then went on to form a peak mainline working (the above formed the 1710 to Reigate and 1838 to Brighton respectively) so presumably doing a suburban first minimised conflicts.

They must’ve or either the timetabling nowadays is slightly strange
Between CLJ-VIC it’s take 4-5 mins but the timetable leaves a good 8-10 minutes between them although the trains can complete it in half the time

Which leaves many trains (according to timetable) arriving early than planned

Probably adds a few minutes on to the stopping service

How long does the service take to get from Clapham to Victoria? In the 1980s?

From the 1982 timetable on timetableworld.com, a sample service:

Victoria 0949, Clapham 0954, Wandsworth Common 0957, Balham 0959, Streatham Common 1003, Norbury 1005, Thornton Heath 1008, Selhurst 1010, East Croydon arr. 1014. This was part of the standard-pattern half-hourly off-peak service.

The time penalty for stopping didn't seem great in those days. Fast Victoria-Clapham-East Croydon services did it in 16, the stopper in 25 with 6 extra stops, so 1.5 min penalty per stop. I recall the Portsmouth Direct had that kind of penalty too back in the day (e.g. 13 min non-stop, 19 min all-stations Haslemere-Guildford).

Those trains may not have stopped at Wandsworth Common or Battersea Park, because there aren’t really any other ways to pick up slack on the 28 min journey time from VIC to SRS.

They skipped Battersea Park (only), but still did Selhurst in 21 mins (see above), every half hour during the day. Battersea Park looked like it had just a one minute time penalty, so if there were any all stations services (haven't checked), they could presumably have done it in 22.

Ah, timetables ain't what they used to be

 

[PGAT]

Battersea Park looked like it had just a one minute time penalty,

That is true, but with the modern timetable trains depart VIC at :00 and :30 and leave CLJ 9 mins afterwards so I assume there would have been many minor delays between those areas. I travel the route every day and the quickest service was roughly as follows:

VIC-1730
BAK-1733 1/2, 1734
CLJ- 1736 3/4, 1738 1/2
WSW- 1742, 1742 1/2
BAL- 1743 3/4, 1744 1/2
SRC- 1747 1/2, 1749 3/4
NRB- 1751 1/2, 1752
TTH- 1754 1/2, 1755 3/4
SRS- 1757

Realistically you couldn’t make up time on this service because of delays and passenger congestion and once again, this is the absolute best case scenario in my experiences

 

[Surreytraveller]

Too tightly pathed, it may not be the EGR that loses much time stopping at selhurst but the trains behind on the fast lines would lose time.

And as the East Grinsteads cross from the Slow to the Fast, any that are longer than 8 coaches will block the junction out

 

[Bikeman78]

From the 1982 timetable on timetableworld.com, a sample service:

Victoria 0949, Clapham 0954, Wandsworth Common 0957, Balham 0959, Streatham Common 1003, Norbury 1005, Thornton Heath 1008, Selhurst 1010, East Croydon arr. 1014. This was part of the standard-pattern half-hourly off-peak service.

The time penalty for stopping didn't seem great in those days. Fast Victoria-Clapham-East Croydon services did it in 16, the stopper in 25 with 6 extra stops, so 1.5 min penalty per stop. I recall the Portsmouth Direct had that kind of penalty too back in the day (e.g. 13 min non-stop, 19 min all-stations Haslemere-Guildford).

The Victoria-Selhurst-Epson Downs trains are given a generous 28 minutes to Selhurst now. Even if you took out two minutes for omitting Battersea that is still five minutes extra compared with the above. On the last day of the 455s I travelled on that route. Six late from Battersea Park owing to a failed train on the down slow, one late at West Croydon and waiting time outside Sutton. A 377 ought to be able to do better than a 455 or an EPB for point to point timings.

 

[PGAT]

The Victoria-Selhurst-Epson Downs trains are given a generous 28 minutes to Selhurst now. Even if you took out two minutes for omitting Battersea that is still five minutes extra compared with the above. On the last day of the 455s I travelled on that route. Six late from Battersea Park owing to a failed train on the down slow, one late at West Croydon and waiting time outside Sutton. A 377 ought to be able to do better than a 455 or an EPB for point to point timings.

It seems to be that the 377s spend longer at the stations than the 455s. Like on a 455 with a good driver the doors close then a second later the trains pulls off, is there a technical reason why this is?

Too tightly pathed, it may not be the EGR that loses much time stopping at selhurst but the trains behind on the fast lines would lose time.

The EGRs pass SRS at 06 and 36 past the hour in the down direction and 17,47 in the up. The next trains after those are 5 minutes behind.

 

[physics34]

The pre 2018 timetable didnt seem to take into account 10 car wotking on the metro... obviously 10 cars take longer to clear speed restrictions, terminus platforms and take a bit longer to despatch.

 

[nw1]

The Victoria-Selhurst-Epson Downs trains are given a generous 28 minutes to Selhurst now. Even if you took out two minutes for omitting Battersea that is still five minutes extra compared with the above. On the last day of the 455s I travelled on that route. Six late from Battersea Park owing to a failed train on the down slow, one late at West Croydon and waiting time outside Sutton. A 377 ought to be able to do better than a 455 or an EPB for point to point timings.

Yes, that's what one might think, modern stock ought to be able to do the journey quite snappily due to faster acceleration, even if they wait a little longer at stations. Yet EPBs, already 30 years old, were pretty snappy back in the early 80s.

I don't have a timetable to hand for the early years of 455s on the Central (1985, 1986 or so) - would be interesting to see how they performed and whether they were even quicker than the EPBs. That said, I don't think they were timed any differently as in this era many routes had a mix of the two and there seemed to be no difference in the timings.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Southampton doesn't have Victoria services on a Sunday. On Sunday Arun Valley services are reduced to 1 per hour and they split Bognor/Portsmouth and add call at Redhill to cover for Reigate service becoming hourly.

Peterborough to Horsham services do not run on a Sunday, so the Bedford to Gatwick's pick up the Merstham/Coulsdon South calls but lose their calls at Earlswood/Salfords and an hourly Horsham to London Bridge service running in the calling pattern of the Peterborough services but with opposite swap to Bedford's meaning Earlswood/Salfords get hourly service only. To bring Redhill back up to 4 Thameslinks per hour the hourly Brighton to Cambridge service was supposed to call at Redhill - although this seems to have been dropped recently.

This has been the same since 2018 - except you could probably count on one hand the number of weekends a full service has operated since 2018. Every weekend engineering works have forced changes mostly with Redhill route having a very unsatisfactory service as it is always seems to be the last route GTR try to find trains for when doing engineering timetables.

You've got a bonus this weekend as SE are on diversion so 7tph to London better than weekdays!

 

[Southern Dvr]

New trains are always slower then their predecessors. At least initially.

 

[TEW]

It seems to be that the 377s spend longer at the stations than the 455s. Like on a 455 with a good driver the doors close then a second later the trains pulls off, is there a technical reason why this is?

I believe on Southern 455s the door interlock was only with the traction rather than brakes, so with the doors released traction power could not be applied but the brakes could be released. This allows for pretty speedy getaways from stations with certain driving styles.