London Northwestern Class 730s

Peter Sarf

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Thanks for the photos Tam. I think the front end design looks neat and hopefully the flat windscreens mean no screen redesign will be needed as the Hitachi class 385 did.
They do look remarkably similar BUT with the absence of the curved problematic screen. Very nice looking with a rather different colour/finish.
 
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RailUK Forums

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They do look nice! Does anyone know what the seating capacity will be? I presume a 10 730 will have a greater amount of seats than a 12 350. But looking at the third photo down, the seats seem to line up with the windows which suggests a lower density seating layout compared to the Greater Anglia Aventras.
Some units will be 2+3 and some will be 2+2.

For example a 10 car 720 with 2+3 seating will have 1,100 seats.

For 2+2 I'm not sure on seat numbers.

Maximum capacity on 350 is the /2 subclass (2+3) seating which has 24 first & 243 standard = 267 seats x by 3 for 12 car is 801 seats. So a 2+3 720 has 299 more seats.
 

southern442

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Some units will be 2+3 and some will be 2+2.

For example a 10 car 720 with 2+3 seating will have 1,100 seats.

For 2+2 I'm not sure on seat numbers.

Maximum capacity on 350 is the /2 subclass (2+3) seating which has 24 first & 243 standard = 267 seats x by 3 for 12 car is 801 seats. So a 2+3 720 has 299 more seats.
Would I be right to suggest that the WMR ones will have 2+3 but the LNWR ones will have 2+2?
 

Domh245

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Would I be right to suggest that the WMR ones will have 2+3 but the LNWR ones will have 2+2?

LNWR will have two subfleets, one of which is 2+3 and the other 2+2 - extracting numbers from the franchise agreement they seat 426S/36F and 368S/39F respectively. The 3 cars seat 193, which would suggest 2+2 (backed up by slide 19 from this briefing showing a 2+2 layout using the Kiel seats from the 720s)
 

Wyrleybart

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Thanks Tam for sharing the vision.
These are presumably 730/1 or 730/2 as I believe the 3 car 730/0s will be orange and purple.

They look far better than the Siemens 380s and Hitachi 385s I think
 

Energy

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Nice to see they have the electrostar style sliding cab door instead of the ugly ones on the 80Xs and other Aventras.
 

southern442

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LNWR will have two subfleets, one of which is 2+3 and the other 2+2 - extracting numbers from the franchise agreement they seat 426S/36F and 368S/39F respectively. The 3 cars seat 193, which would suggest 2+2 (backed up by slide 19 from this briefing showing a 2+2 layout using the Kiel seats from the 720s)
Unusually, both WMR 730s and 196s seem to lack armrests, which is somewhat unusual but not totally inappropriate considering the services they will work.

The fact that some 730s will be 2+3 makes me wonder why they wanted to get rid of the 350/2s in the first place, if they are keeping the rest of the 350's? For some reason I imagined that they wanted to create a completely 2+2 fleet for London Northwestern, or was it to do with ownership (and an excuse to ditch the 319s)?
 

samuelmorris

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Unusually, both WMR 730s and 196s seem to lack armrests, which is somewhat unusual but not totally inappropriate considering the services they will work.

The fact that some 730s will be 2+3 makes me wonder why they wanted to get rid of the 350/2s in the first place, if they are keeping the rest of the 350's? For some reason I imagined that they wanted to create a completely 2+2 fleet for London Northwestern, or was it to do with ownership (and an excuse to ditch the 319s)?
Leasing costs I believe, no other reason. You don't just discard the country's most reliable fleet without good cause...
 

southern442

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Nice to see they have the electrostar style sliding cab door instead of the ugly ones on the 80Xs and other Aventras.
It's weird because classes 345, 710 and 720 have that weird cab door (the IEPs also have it as you say but it seems to be a fairly normal thing for intercity stock to have) but the 730s and 701s don't, they have the sliding plug cab door. Is it to do with the fact that the former all have streamlined ends?
 

Energy

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Unusually, both WMR 730s and 196s seem to lack armrests, which is somewhat unusual but not totally inappropriate considering the services they will work.
Allows for more standing space.
The fact that some 730s will be 2+3 makes me wonder why they wanted to get rid of the 350/2s in the first place, if they are keeping the rest of the 350's? For some reason I imagined that they wanted to create a completely 2+2 fleet for London Northwestern, or was it to do with ownership (and an excuse to ditch the 319s)?
2 reasons:
-Leasing costs were high for the 350/2s
-LNWR needed a few extra trains but didn't want a microfleet, however if it wasn't for the reason above I would imagine they would just take on the 360s.
It's weird because classes 345, 710 and 720 have that weird cab door (the IEPs also have it as you say but it seems to be a fairly normal thing for intercity stock to have) but the 730s and 701s don't, they have the sliding plug cab door. Is it to do with the fact that the former all have streamlined ends?
The 701 has a flatter front end to allow for a couple more seats and the 730 cab is really just a 701 cab with a gangway.
 

Domh245

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It's weird because classes 345, 710 and 720 have that weird cab door (the IEPs also have it as you say but it seems to be a fairly normal thing for intercity stock to have) but the 730s and 701s don't, they have the sliding plug cab door. Is it to do with the fact that the former all have streamlined ends?

Yup, 701s and 730s are a more compact cab
 

Bletchleyite

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It's weird because classes 345, 710 and 720 have that weird cab door (the IEPs also have it as you say but it seems to be a fairly normal thing for intercity stock to have) but the 730s and 701s don't, they have the sliding plug cab door. Is it to do with the fact that the former all have streamlined ends?

I wonder if it's guard operation vs DOO?
 

southern442

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Allows for more standing space.

2 reasons:
-Leasing costs were high for the 350/2s
-LNWR needed a few extra trains but didn't want a microfleet, however if it wasn't for the reason above I would imagine they would just take on the 360s.

The 701 has a flatter front end to allow for a couple more seats and the 730 cab is really just a 701 cab with a gangway.
That seems pretty sensible to me. Good thing that they didn't go mad and order something to replace all the 350s :lol:

They will perhaps need all the extra trains post-HS2, I assume after that point we can expect to see even more new fleets...
 

Energy

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That seems pretty sensible to me. Good thing that they didn't go mad and order something to replace all the 350s :lol:
I would rather they kept the 350s and took on the 360s, both are very reliable while Aventras aren't known for their reliability, also stops wasting 37 young, good trains.
 

southern442

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I would rather they kept the 350s and took on the 360s, both are very reliable while Aventras aren't known for their reliability, also stops wasting 37 young, good trains.
Ideally this, too.

(off-topic, in an ideal world maybe they could've taken on the 360's from GA and then maybe the 379's could have gone to EMR instead?)

Aside from that, the pictures look very nice, and as you mention with regards to reliability, we shall have to see, but I think it will be nice to try out an Aventra at 110mph, as there hasn't been a whole lot of opportunity to sample them at higher speeds yet.
 

RealTrains07

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Unusually, both WMR 730s and 196s seem to lack armrests, which is somewhat unusual but not totally inappropriate considering the services they will work.

The fact that some 730s will be 2+3 makes me wonder why they wanted to get rid of the 350/2s in the first place, if they are keeping the rest of the 350's? For some reason I imagined that they wanted to create a completely 2+2 fleet for London Northwestern, or was it to do with ownership (and an excuse to ditch the 319s)?
350/2s was purely on a leasing cost base. Poterbrook are very stingy in terms of leasing.

319s purely because of long term reliability issues. Been a huge issue on the abbey line in the past.

If it wasnt for the leasing costs the 350/2s would probably stay as it would be easier for fleet diagramming?
 

James Kevill

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I reckon the 37 Class 350/2 Desiros are to expensive to be owned by Porterbrook, despite that they are newish and modern that are built between between 2008 and 2009.
 

Energy

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I reckon the 37 Class 350/2 Desiros are to expensive to be owned by Porterbrook, despite that they are newish and modern that are built between between 2008 and 2009.
'To expensive to be owned' Not really sure what you mean - The units themselves will be about the same price as the other 350s, 450s etc. there isn't anything special about them, they were just bought when interest rates were high so loans were expensive so the cost of leasing them is pretty high, similar to the 379s procured at about the same time and are similar in being standard 25kV 100mph (well until the 350s got upgraded) 20m EMUs which are incredibly similar to trains made a couple years prior. Porterbrook could probably re-negotiate a lower interest deal, assuming they haven't already paid most of it of, but it would probably need a longer lease.
 

Bletchleyite

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They have cameras on them, albeit hard to see with he dark green. The 172's are all being retro fitted with cameras still so who knows; but I can guess the answer.

What I meant was is the manual door not suitable for cab based guard operation, but the sliding door is, perhaps?
 

185

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Any cab door with a proper interlock, manual or otherwise would be fine. Some 170s are manual, imo a key component in a modern train cab door is the inclusion of a droplight window.
What I meant was is the manual door not suitable for cab based guard operation, but the sliding door is, perhaps?
 

172007

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What I meant was is the manual door not suitable for cab based guard operation, but the sliding door is, perhaps?
They have had limited running using conductor managers and Conductor coaches so it is possible but that's all I know. As to where they positioned themselves I just can't remember ot was months ago.
 

Pumbaa

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What I meant was is the manual door not suitable for cab based guard operation, but the sliding door is, perhaps?
It’s the gangway that drives the need for sliding doors. The swing door would encroach on the available cab space when in multiple.
 

southern442

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Ok. However, according to Porterbrook, they have proposed to convert the 37 350/2s into a Battery Electric Multiple Units with the battery pack fitted. And they will be used to operate the non-electrified routes such Oxenholme to Windermere branch line.
Your original point was about them being modified with third rail equipment, which if they are, they would almost certainly go to SWR. However you also mention the battery fitting which Porterbrook indeed want to do, and they could go basically anywhere if they can get that right. Oxenholme to Windermere might be a good shout as they can work electric for the rest of their journey down to Manchester.
 

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