London Northwestern Class 730s

StewLane

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Third rail and battery would make them candidates for Uckfield and Ashford Hastings if they had the range
 
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A0wen

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Third rail and battery would make them candidates for Uckfield and Ashford Hastings if they had the range

In theory - but they'd be going into a fleet which has no Desiros, though I guess their sister company is using Desiros.

I also wonder if there will be a problem with clearances ? 350s are a little over 10 cm wider than than the 171s.
 

Chiltern006

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Most logical option would be SWR. convert to 450s by adding third rail (is this the only difference) and replace the god awful 442s, which aren't known for working longer than 5 months at a time :D

Scotrail could potentially take them to get rid of the 318s and 320s (if carriage nos match)
 

tomuk

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I believe the class 701 cab is shorter than the earlier Aventras. On the earlier trains the cab door is behind the driver's seat. On the class 701 and, I presume, the class 730, the door is more adjacent to the seat.
I suppose its like the V1 (455,317,150, etc) and the V2 (319,321, etc) Mk3 Suburban units. The 701s, 730s are just an improved version with more passenger space.
 

southern442

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I suppose its like the V1 (455,317,150, etc) and the V2 (319,321, etc) Mk3 Suburban units. The 701s, 730s are just an improved version with more passenger space.
Didn't some old 455s have swing cab doors, or am I making that up?
 

Domh245

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The 701 has a shorter cab - the 730 doesn't (I think).

Both are the 'new' cab with the sliding doors, smaller side windows, and DOO cameras mounted on the cab rather than the body. 730 looks to be longer (roof to coupler) than the 701 but this looks to be in a 'flat' section immediately next to the roof before the same sort of sharp profile as the 701s. I suspect that in terms of driver position relative to cab wall the 730s are more like the 701 than the earlier aventras
 

ainsworth74

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As a reminder this thread is about the introduction of Class 730s to London Northerwestern. Any matters related to the future of the 350s would be a subject that needs it's own thread. Please ensure further posts are on-topic :)
 

Merle Haggard

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The fact that some of the new units will be 2+2 seating and some 2+3 implies that they will not be confined to one route.
Bearing in mind the complicated joining and splitting diagrammed pre Covid (e.g., 8 or 12 cars EUS-NMP, front 4 cars forward, rear 4/8 returning to EUS) and the way that platform occupancy is reduce at Euston by, for example, an inward Tring returning as an outward long-distance service, it would seem to be a major complication if 730s can't multiple with 350s. Does anyone know if they can? It would obviously add complexities in train lengths as well.
History tells us that difficulty was encountered in keeping the (then) 100 mph 350/2s with suburban seating, and 110 mph 350/1s and /3s on their respective circuits .
 

Chiltern006

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they probably could work together but wouldn't talk to eachother ie the newer 377s and the older 377s on Southern
 

Domh245

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they probably could work together but wouldn't talk to eachother ie the newer 377s and the older 377s on Southern

A poor example there as the new and old 377s can talk to each other!

The best that can be hoped for between the two is emergency coupling and dragging away, but I'm doubtful even of that as the couplers are not the same (two pneumatic connections on the 350s, just one on the 730s, before getting into electrical boxes, heights, and the rest of it)
 

172007

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The fact that some of the new units will be 2+2 seating and some 2+3 implies that they will not be confined to one route.
Bearing in mind the complicated joining and splitting diagrammed pre Covid (e.g., 8 or 12 cars EUS-NMP, front 4 cars forward, rear 4/8 returning to EUS) and the way that platform occupancy is reduce at Euston by, for example, an inward Tring returning as an outward long-distance service, it would seem to be a major complication if 730s can't multiple with 350s. Does anyone know if they can? It would obviously add complexities in train lengths as well.
History tells us that difficulty was encountered in keeping the (then) 100 mph 350/2s with suburban seating, and 110 mph 350/1s and /3s on their respective circuits .
I have been told that the 730's types are not compatible in class. That is to say the 3 cars can't couple to a 5 car. This info is 6 months old but at the time I heard it was said that if a 3 set failed at Coventry for example then they have to remember a 5 car can't rescue it. Absolutely can't get my head round it tbh and I am sure common sense will prevail although I can only assume it was an internal windup.
 

southern442

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I have been told that the 730's types are not compatible in class. That is to say the 3 cars can't couple to a 5 car. This info is 6 months old but at the time I heard it was said that if a 3 set failed at Coventry for example then they have to remember a 5 car can't rescue it. Absolutely can't get my head round it tbh and I am sure common sense will prevail although I can only assume it was an internal windup.
I've long thought that they should really be two separate classes (730's and 731's maybe) because there are countless examples of different fleets being classed separately for a lot fewer differences than there are between these two fleets.

That's what I thought. 2 segregated and incompatible fleets on an intensive and inter-worked network, what can possibly go wrong...
Pardon my ignorance but how is it that, for example, pacers can work with 150's and 153's work with 158's etc etc, but modern classes cannot do this?
 

Domh245

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That's what I thought. 2 segregated and incompatible fleets on an intensive and inter-worked network, what can possibly go wrong...

Other busy TOCs manage to follow their planned unit diagrams (even the stalwart butt of diagramming jokes at Northern), so I don't see why LNR should be an exception, or are their network and operations significantly more complex than most?

I have been told that the 730's types are not compatible in class. That is to say the 3 cars can't couple to a 5 car. This info is 6 months old but at the time I heard it was said that if a 3 set failed at Coventry for example then they have to remember a 5 car can't rescue it. Absolutely can't get my head round it tbh and I am sure common sense will prevail although I can only assume it was an internal windup.

I'm sure that they'll be capable of rescuing each other, just not regular service working (which makes sense, given the variation in top speed (and implied acceleration)

Pardon my ignorance but how is it that, for example, pacers can work with 150's and 153's work with 158's etc etc, but modern classes cannot do this?

Running everything on proprietary software rather than agnostic relays, especially when you don't specify a need for interoperability. BR era DMU interoperability was specifically requested (which is why 170s could also work with them if needed) but that's not something that TOCs are requiring (although it'd no doubt be beneficial)
 

southern442

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Other busy TOCs manage to follow their planned unit diagrams (even the stalwart butt of diagramming jokes at Northern), so I don't see why LNR should be an exception, or are their network and operations significantly more complex than most?

Running everything on proprietary software rather than agnostic relays, especially when you don't specify a need for interoperability. BR era DMU interoperability was specifically requested (which is why 170s could also work with them if needed) but that's not something that TOCs are requiring (although it'd no doubt be beneficial)
This is what I think. There's no need for a large uniform fleet making loads of half-life units go to waste if you can specify interoperability and if you diagram things correctly.
 

Wolfie

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This is what I think. There's no need for a large uniform fleet making loads of half-life units go to waste if you can specify interoperability and if you diagram things correctly.
The more software thats involved the harder it gets....
 

Chiltern006

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could we see a wmr 730 ever drop on a tring-euston stopper? albeit very late but could it happen if LNWR have done something stupid...
 

southern442

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Yes but to be fair, 350s and 323s aren’t the same class. 730/1 and 730/0 are
As I said though, they shouldn't be. The 465's and 466's (separate classes) have far more in common than these two subclasses. There isn't even a consensus on whether they can operate in multiple together or not. It's probably best to imagine them as separate classes for all intents and purposes.
 

RealTrains07

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Yes but to be fair, 350s and 323s aren’t the same class. 730/1 and 730/0 are

Yes but bear in mind the numbers of each subclass of 730.

Barely enough 730/0s available to work anything outside of crosscity routes considering the diagrams

LNR are trying to isolate the 730/1s to work only local services between Northampton and Euston. If that works. Interoperability between the 730/1 and ill be less of an issue as the freed units from the locals will work more long distance services.
 
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Chiltern006

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I think it'll turn out like the GA situation with the flirts, its very easy to say what should happen on paper but in the real world they're very easy to get out of whack
 

Mikey C

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As I said though, they shouldn't be. The 465's and 466's (separate classes) have far more in common than these two subclasses. There isn't even a consensus on whether they can operate in multiple together or not. It's probably best to imagine them as separate classes for all intents and purposes.
But then the BREL and GEC-Alsthom 465s are very different to each other, but still classed as 465s!
 

sharpley

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A 730 was moved from Old Dalby to Crewe today, top and tailed by some 37s and barrier wagons. Saw it on my daily walk reversing at Melton Mowbray. Didn't know what it was tbh when I first saw it. Dark body with orange ends.

 

Silverlinky

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The WMT and LNR business units will move further away from each other in months/years to come, the 730/0's will stay in their own business unit and the 730/1's and 2's in theirs. 350's will continue to cross over at least in the short term.
 

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